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Old 02-01-2011, 09:44 PM #127
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Old 03-01-2011, 12:24 AM #128
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:28 AM #129
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:06 AM #130
hill160881
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well i say it was a good move. Tanks are stupid, they are slow and they make up rules for them that give them a even grater advantage. Like they need it. It is a tank, if i get close enough to touch it, then everyone in it should be dead as if i just attached a bomb to it. Its a tank and if it is attacking me i should be able to light it up even if i cant hurt it. Making rules to keep people safe is one thing but making rules to stop players from finding ways to stop them is stupid.

They are not even used in a realistic manor.
Tanks are not used on people unless they are in a structure(Law Of Armed Conflict) They are very vulnerable in close quarter situations. The way they are used in paintball is totally fictional and not simulated in a real manor. When will a tank go after a mess of foot solders, never. When will a tank get that close to its target, only by accident. They sit back and hit there targets from out of reach. They are cool but not realistic at all. If i cant shoot it because i cant damage it, that does not mean i can not distract him. Or blind him. If the tank becomes unsafe to operate then it should be considered dead. Then they will have to build it better so i cant blind them.

I just find the rules around tanks fishy to say the least, and if the occupant is a pus and complains about getting shoot up at Point Blank range maybe they should find a different job on the field. You are in a TANK, OMG.
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Old 03-01-2011, 05:45 PM #131
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I hope I don't regret responding.
Sorry to hear you don't like PB Tanks. They are supposed to be slow, not for realism, but safety. Yes they have a significant advantage, so does full auto, ghillie suits, First Strike rounds, LAWS, and other special weapons. That's the idea, to create different assets with different capabilities, strengths and weaknesses, and therefore, a greater interest and entertainment value to the game. You yourself are working on a Minigun, right? Why? For an advantage right?

If it is a motorized tank, and you get close enough to touch it, you are out, if it is unmotorized, and field rules allow you to get that close, then you should "probably" be out anyway, because the PUG can bring to bear regular PB markers on you, but you would be within the typical "surrender" distance, and with your apparent enthusiasm level, I worry about unpleasant results.

I agree with you on the subject of being able to engage a tank with your marker, even though you know it will not eliminate it. It is a valid tactic. Keep the crew looking for you instead of the Anti Tank team or LAW player. There are (to my knowledge) NO rules to "stop players from finding ways to stop them(Tanks)". Any such rules would indeed be "Stupid". There ARE rules in place for Tank elimination. They are simple, straightforward, and effective. LAWs, Satchel Charges, Mines, and other Tank fired Nerfs (or special AT paint depending on the field and rule set). There are rules in place to prevent players from compromising safety, including "safety radius" or proximity rules. The rules in place prohibiting "Tank Storming" are for safety. They overlap several other aspects and existing rules, including not shooting at extremely close range, avoiding confrontational contact, avoiding overshooting, and since the crew are only taken out by specified methods that expressly EXCLUDE PB markers, it is utterly unsportsmanlike to even make the attempt.

You are correct, PB Tanks are not used in a "realistic" manner by todays Armored Fighting Vehicle's standards, but that is as much due to the "UNREALISTIC" limitations placed on the PB Tank. A real AFV will have heavy machine guns that ARE used against infantry and AT assets and they have much greater range than infantry individual weapons, real AFVs can and will literally run over enemy infantry given the chance, real AFVs often have AP munitions (HE, HE-AP, Flechette, WP etc) that can be used as impromptu artillery.

Regarding the LOAC comment. Nowhere did I read that Tanks cannot engage infantry. If the Infantry do not immediately surrender, then they present a real threat to the Tank and thus any other implied protection under the LOAC would be removed. However, our LOAC in Paintball is a bit different. We are not supposed to shoot an enemy at "close range". We are not supposed to "overshoot". We are not supposed to "Tank Storm". We are not supposed to shoot PB Tank crews while they are inside their Tank. Etc.

In the real world, infantry will use AFVs for cover during maneuver where possible, and yes, the risk of fratricide is there, but infantry will still take a "might get crushed" over a "Will get shot" any day. In Paintball, I have read of only ONE US field that allows players to get that close to a moving PB Tank. The rest insist upon a safety radius, typically 15 or 20 feet.

We are playing a game, and there are some things that we can make pretty realistic, and a lot of things that we can't. The rule sets for Armor are designed to balance the "Realistic" with the "Practical" while maintaining playability, safety, and entertainment value.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:11 PM #132
hill160881
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I suppose I agree in most part but I think the 15 foot rule should work the other way. If i get that close to a tank then it is not well defended and should be taken out.

Safety first but the idea of a tank in paintball is probably more fun than the actual thing it self. I will have to wait and see if i ever get to run one.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:18 PM #133
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Well Hill160881 install that new mini gun in a good tank with the protection from it and I'll bet your will have one of the thrills in paintball you wont forget. The ten, fifteen, or twenty foot rule engagement rules are for both players and tankers. Unfortuneatly players still shoot other players to close. Last year I played in the Westpoint NY game for the first time. Players could shoot fully auto and the distance from the tank was around 3 ft. Needless to say our tank got doused with paint even though it had kill boxes on it. They also tried to blind us. I was not use to this 3 ft rule and when ever players got near our tank. I thought they were going to board it (tank storm). But we shot back at close range because they shot at us that close. We were cautious and concerned because one team did threaten to throw a smoke granade inside our tank. Personally I would rather get bunked then have someone throw a granade in my tank. Normally if tanks are not well defended like most of the time the AT guys normally have a field day with us.

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Old 03-01-2011, 08:54 PM #134
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i was thinking of turning my very old bobcat into a tank.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:18 PM #135
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Hill160881,
The standard PB Player can see and hear much better than the PB Tank crew, as a general statement. The separation is for safety, as already discussed. It is logical from a safety standpoint and from a "realism" standpoint that the Tank has the "right-of-way" and the player is eliminated rather than the tank.

The overall play-ability of the game would suffer considerably if the bias were reversed, there would be constant arguments and occupy too much ref time and resources to enforce, it would encourage dangerous tactics, such as infantry charging to eliminate the tank by proximity, which puts opposing infantry and tank in too close proximity for safety, and so increasing the risk of somebody getting crunched.
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Tower: "TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees."

TWA 2341: "Center, we are at 35,000 feet. How much noise can we make up here?"

Tower: "Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?"
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:33 AM #136
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OMG I thought this thread died several times.
The Law of War (LOW) prohibits weapons that would cause "undue suffering". If a soldier was hit by the main gun of a tank he won't suffer much.
The use of a tank- two methods were developed. First the tank was use to support the infantry. Main doctrine of the French and British before WW II. If you look at the weapons, short barrelled main guns, you see what they were used for. Also the tanks were spread out among the infantry units. The other method is enmass and the primary purpose is to take out other tanks. The Germans used this in WW II and now is the main doctrine of most armies.
In PB we mainly use the tanks as infantry support. Mainly due to the numbers of tanks available. Yes they engage other tanks too. But not enmass like the Germans. It takes team work to do this and since most players only build one tank there isn't time to build a network and practice.
Storming a tank- thanks to Saving Private Ryan this is a popular method. Unfortunately modern tanks don't have open vision slits and have locks on the inside of a tank. If you were to use a AT mine like the Russians that was place on the side of a tank it would weight 10-20 pounds to take out a modern tank. Some fields allow satchel charges/ grenades to take out or immobilize a tank.
Rules favoring tanks- With the number of LAWs on the field and the lack of infantry support I feel the tanks are at a huge disadvantage. But if rules aren't in place tankers would stop building them. But most rules are for safety or enviromental reason. Take something away you have to give something back.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:32 AM #137
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I may actually have to watch Saving Private Ryan just to catch up on the frequent references I find.

Abnmp78, yes, in PB, at least what I have seen so far, there is precious little "Point of the Spear" tactics with PAVs, more like a pesky Die Fledermaus striking fear into the enemy ranks in a seemingly random pattern until they get swatted by enemy AT.

I would like to see a decent Armor VS Armor scenario, one where the Refs are in towers or Deer stands and no crunchies on the field. Every Tank gets a radio on the Control freq. and the refs can call / confirm hits on the radio.

Some teams have several tanks, the Blackhearts have from 2 to 4 field-able at any given time, I think Jester mentioned a team that can put something around a dozen on the field. That would be pretty epic, seeing 20 or 30 tanks at one game, all on the field at one time!
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Tower: "TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees."

TWA 2341: "Center, we are at 35,000 feet. How much noise can we make up here?"

Tower: "Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?"
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:39 PM #138
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CNC, We've talked about doing a tank only game. But its just been talk so far.

Hill160881, Things look different when your sitting in the drivers seat.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:31 PM #139
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Tank on tank

Well I have suggested to the SKirmish Game Director if we could have a tank only battle on the beach during the weekend of the ION game. It almost happend last year when it was discussed at the tank pre-inspection. There was even talk that myself and BlackangelSS would have a commanders duel on the beach before the game. But his tank went down and it and the tank battle didnt happen. I even suggested for the Battle for Britain game let the tanks simulate as airplanes and have an opening battle on the beach. Sorta like the real conflict. But they changed and went to the Million Man game instead. So if some field out there would like to have a tank game lets do it. I could probably talk the local field owner where in live in eastern WV to have a tank game. But I dont think many would come this far. Its a nice field and I like to play there.

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Old 03-04-2011, 08:21 PM #140
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I think one strategy worth pitching is an Armor VS Armor "MODULE". At the Bear Claw MPP games I have been to, they have a "mission" that is basically Speedball. The generals send down 10 or 15 players each, per the standing mission card specifications, and those players go to the Western Town, or whatever it is called, a Speedball arena with an "Old West" theme. Like other missions, the winner gets points. I would propose a similar Armor vs Armor Mission.

This line of thought as prompted me to explore writing one or more Scenario "Module(s)".

I can see a modular approach being used as a compliment to current "mission" based scenario control of play. A Modular approach can be utilized to provide a logical sequence or story line. If your team wins a particular module, then they are awarded points, plus it then affects the starting position of the next module, or perhaps, which module is next.

For instance, if module 1 is to establish a beech head for an amphibious landing, and the objective IS reached, then that team gets their Armor in the next module. If they FAIL to achieve the objective then the next module is a hasty defense where they must hold the toe hold without armor, but the tanks become fixed emplacements "offshore" and can provide "navel gunfire" against the enemy armor that would otherwise wipe out the invaders on the beach. They have to hold for either a period of time, or advance to a specified line to "win" that module.

With just 8 Modules you can have 256 story lines.

Normandy invasion could provide a core start point. Battle of the Bulge, Kursk, Tobruk, Dunkirk, First and Second Battles for El Alamein,Operation Torch, Rommel retires from El Agheila, Montgomery's Eighth Army takes Tripoli, Battle of Kasserine Pass between the U.S. 1st Armored Division and German Panzers in North Africa, and those represent only a portion of the notable European and "Eastern Front" clashes up through the 1st quarter of 1943. Each of these example could produce at least 3 modules without working hard. Most could serve as a basis for many modules each.

As the producers and field owners have a vested interest in keeping the game Entertaining for ALL (or at least the majority of all) players so they will come back again, and bring their "PAYING" friends the next time, there also needs to be tools for the "Game Masters" to maintain balance, without overtly heavy handed methods. Again, Modules can be "tweaked" according to game momentum and balance.

This approach is completely compatible with the current paradigm of mission based points accumulation, and has the flexibility of supplanting the current mission card approach if suitably well defined and presented.
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Tower: "TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees."

TWA 2341: "Center, we are at 35,000 feet. How much noise can we make up here?"

Tower: "Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?"
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:02 AM #141
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Which that reminds me Treaddz. Remember last year at Fulda they did the pistol competiton? Well they had been talking about doing a tank shooting course there in the field at the entrance to SimCity. You'd have to drive in and do a loop and there would be targets set up where your AT and AP would have to hit. And best time would win. We might end up setting that up this year, but I hadnt talked to Rodney and Ken about it any more. Might be something interesting to do. If we get it figured out I'll let you know.
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:13 AM #142
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I think the ODX field at the Fulda Gap game would be the perfect place for a tank course competitiion. Jesterls please do talk to Ken and Ferg about it. However, if the field tanks participate I think they should only be in exhibition. These tanks do have the advantage of playing and practicing there all the time. This competition could be held on Friday evening or Sunday morning before the final battles.

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Old 04-20-2011, 12:54 PM #143
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Fulda

Agree CT Fulda would be perfect.
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:31 PM #144
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Didn't read most of the thread but I think a suitable solution would be to allow grenades to take out the inside of tanks. It is less of a safety concern and oh so much more satisfying SOAKING them in paint instead of just a shot. If you have gotten this close in the first place, might as well go for the best kill you can
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:02 AM #145
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I sent Ferg an email to see if they have thought any more about the tank competion course. I'll hit Ken and Rodney both up too at VP. Rodney'd be the one to set it up and build it. Getting him thinking about it again will go along way to getting it going.
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Old 04-29-2011, 09:57 AM #146
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Ginga G;
By not reading the whole thread, you totally missed out on herculean tasks of battling obstinacy, or being bored to death. Your loss

Some of the maggot infested equines frequently flogged were the proximity rules, shooting the crew by opening a hatch, door, or pushing the marker through an opening, and crews are as immune to small arms as the tank is.

Your proposal would require changing several standing rules.

1-Proximity (for motorized tanks).
2-Do not open any door or hatch or push your marker through an opening port...
3-Tank crews can only be eliminated by their tank being eliminated by appropriate anti tank weapons per whatever rule set the field has in place. This rule (3) has several versions depending on where you play, special paint color for some places, nerfs at others, etc.

Depending on the rules set at any given field, other rule might also have to be modified to accommodate your proposal.

Seems we are having a hard enough time getting people to follow existing rules (hence the repeated resurrection of this thread). That might imply that people are failing to read the rules, or that the rules need to be changed to a more intuitive format. I think it likely that the former is more prevalent than the need for the latter.

Jestertls;
Might have to try out your home field some day. Any chance you will make it to Bear Claw for the May 2011 scenario?
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Tower: "TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees."

TWA 2341: "Center, we are at 35,000 feet. How much noise can we make up here?"

Tower: "Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?"
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:00 AM #147
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Don't like the idea but maybe tanks need to have warning labels like the one below. "Do Not Approach Tank within 20 feet". Shouldn't have to do this if everyone reads the rules but it'll warn those who haven't. That should eliminate players that can read from opening hatches, doors, or pushing their marker through an opening.

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