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Old 02-13-2011, 07:54 PM #64
foreverpsycotic
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$65 is not bad for a case and I wouldn't mind paying that at all, as long as it is mid grade at the least. When I started playing paintball, I was paying $65 a case for Nitroduck paintballs (read: the cheap **** in 02-03), and I normally shot 3/4 to a full case every time. I was also playing from 9-3 strait, with very little downtime (enough time to grab a little water, hotdog, reload). If a field wants to charge $160 a case, they are not looking for a player like me and I respect that. Just do not make it seem like it is the only way to go for other players. Some fields make up for their low prices in the volume they sell paint. Some fields around me can go through a skid in a day, especially when there are 8-10 x-ball teams there for rotations. They might not make a ton off of one case, but the volume they sell it in is higher.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:56 PM #65
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Originally Posted by GatSplat View Post
I've never seen a forum where people want to complain about what people charge for their services before.. other than paintball. This is so unique. I've never seen a bunch of people saying that the so and so bar is too expensive on beer, or this restaurant charges too much for steaks... People just don't go if it doesn't fit their Price / experience = value formula...
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:14 PM #66
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Sure.. you said you were paying about 70 a case.... so if you went to a place that charges twice as much, you'd have to cut your consumption in half to spend the same amount of money.

I (as well as every owner) realizes that some people want to shoot a bunch of paint, and some want it cheap. But also there are some that would rather be in games where people don't shoot as much... so if the price is higher, they shoot less, and if they are the kind of people that enjoy that, they don't mind paying for the paint, then just shooting a bit less.

Not every field format is good for everyone, just like not all restaurants are good for everyone... that's why there are ihops, and mcDonalds, and expensive steak houses... Some would rather go where it costs more, because it's a different experience - be it paintball or food.

This does not make one right or wrong, just different.

Now we are at 65 a case, but whether someone else in town is 45 or 145.. that's ok... they are not the same as my field. Each is unique, and people decide where they want to play!

I've never seen a forum where people want to complain about what people charge for their services before.. other than paintball. This is so unique. I've never seen a bunch of people saying that the so and so bar is too expensive on beer, or this restaurant charges too much for steaks... People just don't go if it doesn't fit their Price / experience = value formula...
I'm not sure what you are talking about but people say this kind of thing all the time. I'm sure you've heard it, "I'd love to go eat __ but that place is way over priced!" or "____ place is way to expensive!" " That bar is fun but the drinks are way to much!".

Being a self made millionaire maybe your crowd is not the same as mine but just about every one I know in person has commented on the price of places they want to try or have tried being to high... it's not surprising to assume people would do the same online too.

Last edited by jake55 : 02-13-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:37 PM #67
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Edit: only reason I have a problem with your response is because you ignored the rest of my statement. Not cool :p.
Sorry, I'll try again.

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This is my opinion. Screw you guys who pay $40 a case. I have to pay like 65-70 for a case. Before fees. If you are complaining about 40-45 a case, get over it. Especially if you have a great field to play at. Only recently did the field I play at get grass. Before it was mostly dirt and gravel with very little air bunkers. Now we have a good psp field and grass, but the bunkers are a little rough.
I'm sorry you feel you are paying too much and I'm sorry that up until recently you had to play on dirt and gravel. I'm glad that you now have a PSP field and grass to play on. Hopefully they will get the bunkers in better repair for you soon.

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To me, 160 is crazy lol. Even if the customer is arrogant and doesn't know, that still seems absurd, especially with today's economy. What do you tell the people who want to play longer?
I suggest they shoot less (slower).

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Multiple people in a party? 2 people paying for 2 bags is already 80. Before fees.
If a person decides to marry and possibly have kids, his/her expenses go up. This is not only true when they go to play paintball, but in virtually all aspects of life, so I don't really see your point. If I own a restaurant, should I cut the prices of meals because some people might have to have to pay for more than their own meal?
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:52 PM #68
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I'm not sure what you are talking about but people say this kind of thing all the time. I'm sure you've heard it, "I'd love to go eat __ but that place is way over priced!" or "____ place is way to expensive!" " That bar is fun but the drinks are way to much!".
Actually.... no. I never hear people telling others they can't afford to do something they want to do. They simply don't do it. But either way... they don't go shouting all over the net to say stuff about them on forums.. they simply don't go. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:44 PM #69
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I've been playing paintball for 7 years, and I would never pay $160/case for paint.
Exactly! The whole point is that no one will pay $160/case for paint.

But lots of people will pay $40 for a bag of paint, rental, entry, and air.

And most of them will not pay $40 for another bag.

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Old 02-14-2011, 09:37 AM #70
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I see valid points on both sides. I have done tournaments and recball. As a tourny players i have a field i go to for 35-45 a case speedball all day and a rec field where its 65-80 a case with newbs and rentals. It really is all about what your looking for. For an experienced player with these fast guns why is it so hard to cap it? When I go to the rec field i cap my dm around 10-12 bps and enjoy an easy day of fun play. But I do end up at the cheaper place more because I want to play alot. I also like that I have both models close enough then I decide how hard i wanna play that weekend.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:02 AM #71
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But I do end up at the cheaper place more because I want to play alot.
What does that mean though? Do you want to play more minutes on the field or do you want to shoot more balls while on the field? From your post, I get the feeling that at the place where the paintballs are cheaper, it's more of a fast paced tournament type atmosphere, while at the place with the more expensive place, it's a slower pace. Do you actually end up playing more minutes on the field at the tournament type facility? Or do you just shoot at a higher ROF while on the field?

From what I hear from my customers that do both (play tournament type paintball at about $50/case vs. play rec at our field at $40/bag), that they spend less time actually playing on the field at the tournament type field. Cost for the day is similar. I'm not making any judgment that one is better than another, but that's the feedback I get.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:42 AM #72
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Horizon, do the speedballers help maintain the field as well? By this, I mean things like airing up the bunkers if they become deflated, removing old pods that were forgotten, helping out reffing when they are not playing points, possibly even cleaning off the bunkers at the end of the day?
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:46 AM #73
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Originally Posted by foreverpsycotic View Post
Horizon, do the speedballers help maintain the field as well? By this, I mean things like airing up the bunkers if they become deflated, removing old pods that were forgotten, helping out reffing when they are not playing points, possibly even cleaning off the bunkers at the end of the day?
Not to speak for Reiner but I am fairly certain he does not have any airball fields.

I would hope that no fields have customers do things like:

"airing up the bunkers if they become deflated, removing old pods that were forgotten, helping out reffing when they are not playing points, possibly even cleaning off the bunkers at the end of the day"

That would make them employees rather than customers.

This industry is so screwed up.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:03 PM #74
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What does that mean though? Do you want to play more minutes on the field or do you want to shoot more balls while on the field? From your post, I get the feeling that at the place where the paintballs are cheaper, it's more of a fast paced tournament type atmosphere, while at the place with the more expensive place, it's a slower pace. Do you actually end up playing more minutes on the field at the tournament type facility? Or do you just shoot at a higher ROF while on the field?
The cheaper place I go to for tournament style play. Its all about the fast-paced short game challenge but spend more time waiting for your teams go time then playing. The more expensive place is more rec oriented more time on field and more games for about the same amount of paint. For me its more of a fun lazy games, I dont have to play nearly as hard to do well.

This whole discussion really comes down to the players preference and the demographics of the area's players. Its important for the people on this forum to be ambassadors for the sport and try to take new people paintballing every year. When I do its always to the rec oriented place where they will have more playing time and fun. I hook them up with a marker so they dont have to pay rental and get to shoot faster.
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:27 PM #75
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Idk. It just seems like if you wanna take your family out for a day of fun, your spending ~$150 on paint alone(father, son/daughter/and possibly mom). Even playing conservatively. What about a model where each bag you buy, the next bag is $5 less? so if you buy one bag, the second is $35, then $30, and so on? It's still a ludicrous amount of money for 1 bag of 500, but it eases the pressure on people who bring big groups/families. I understand you want to make money, but dang. lol.

And just out of curiosity, do you guys have strictly woodsball type fields? A fast paced woodsball course to sorta put speedball in the woods? This is my own curiosity and doesn't really have to do with anything haha.
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:32 PM #76
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Horizon, do the speedballers help maintain the field as well? By this, I mean things like airing up the bunkers if they become deflated, removing old pods that were forgotten, helping out reffing when they are not playing points, possibly even cleaning off the bunkers at the end of the day?
I have to echo Delmarva's sentiments, while at the same time understanding your point.

Firstly, although there are speedballers at Horizons field, he doesn't host any speedball style play. So there is no need for airing up bunkers, I doubt they clean bunkers often (certainly not daily), and with the average customer shooting less than 500rd a day a doubt there are many pods needing removal. He also runs his business like a business and not like a clubhouse so I'm confident he employs enough people to sufficiently ref the games.


The points you make are based on fields that cater to "tournament players", and even on that note should be restricted to a fields "home team", or sponsored teams. I have played at, and worked at numerous fields and have seen many different ways of doing things.(some good, some not so much) Although it's nice of players to want to help out with reffing when they are not playing, it is not a good idea to just let anyone ref while not playing. People should not be reffing at all if not individually approved by management, although some would reasonably argue players shouldn't be reffing at all unless they are working that day.(either work or play, not both)

However some fields have a deal worked out with a local group to save the team money and save the field effort. In this case there is nothing wrong with players supervising themselves,(most of the time) although there should be some oversight.

The biggest concern with allowing players to ref isn't that there is a problem with the players reffing, it's that if there is a problem on the field you don't want the customers to think the ref is just some random guy. As the old saying goes "perception is reality", if customers see what you're doing as being "low rent", then as far as they are concerned that is what your business is. Unfortunately from what I have seen a number of our industries fields operate using "low rent" tactics, that might not matter so much to regular customers, it can be quite influential to new customers.

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.....What about a model where each bag you buy, the next bag is $5 less? so if you buy one bag, the second is $35, then $30, and so on? It's still a ludicrous amount of money for 1 bag of 500, but it eases the pressure on people who bring big groups/families.....
You assume it's a tactic to make a ton of money off paint sales, but the reality is that it is a tactic to reduce the consumption/purchase of paint. So reducing the cost of subsequent bags would defeat the desire to eliminate the purchase of more paint. However I do see the point of wanting to offer a "family/group" discount, but any kind of discount opens up the desire/budget to purchase more paint, which is something that particular pricing model is designed to prevent.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:15 PM #77
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This whole discussion really comes down to the players preference and the demographics of the area's players.
Are the demographics of the general population that much different from one place to another though? I would argue that there are people who would prefer to play a slower more relaxed atmosphere virtually everywhere, just as there are people who want to play fast paced tournament type paintball everywhere. I think people just believe there is considerable differences, because of what's available in certain areas. If it's mostly speedblal fields, then speedball becomes the dominant type of paintball played in the area. If it's big rec fields that are predominant, then that's what gets played the most in those areas. That doesn't mean though that there wouldn't be a market for the other in those areas. If I were to open a field in California for instance, I'd probably open a venue using the higher priced paintballs/lower volume method. Why? Because it's not as widely available and I know there would be a market for it.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:29 PM #78
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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
Not to speak for Reiner but I am fairly certain he does not have any airball fields.

I would hope that no fields have customers do things like:

"airing up the bunkers if they become deflated, removing old pods that were forgotten, helping out reffing when they are not playing points, possibly even cleaning off the bunkers at the end of the day"

That would make them employees rather than customers.

This industry is so screwed up.
At some of the fields around here, the speedballers tend to help out at the fields. Just seeing if this was nation wide, or just in my area. Mind you, this is only on the speedball fields, not so much in the woods or other fields. More of a "thank you for running this great establishment" than a duty or something that we were asked to do.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:39 PM #79
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At some of the fields around here, the speedballers tend to help out at the fields. Just seeing if this was nation wide, or just in my area. Mind you, this is only on the speedball fields, not so much in the woods or other fields. More of a "thank you for running this great establishment" than a duty or something that we were asked to do.
I'd say it's more in your area then... When I first started posting about the field I was going to build, I got tons of PM's, emails, etc from teams saying how cool it would be to have an indoor astro turf speed ball field in town. And they were going to help build it.... Any help I needed with putting down the turf, hanging nets, painting, cleaning the building... No problem.

Well, I decided that any team that came out and helped - I'd give them free entry for 6 months, and 1/2 off paint.

Wanna guess how many helped??? Umm.... Zero... But as soon as it was done, by me hiring a bunch of guys to do the work... guess how many called to see if we sponsored teams??
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:45 PM #80
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Ouch I am sorry to hear that. Not to say that speedballers are cheap, but I can think of quite a few teams that would be all over that from this area.
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Old 02-14-2011, 04:47 PM #81
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Are the demographics of the general population that much different from one place to another though? I would argue that there are people who would prefer to play a slower more relaxed atmosphere virtually everywhere, just as there are people who want to play fast paced tournament type paintball everywhere. I think people just believe there is considerable differences, because of what's available in certain areas. If it's mostly speedblal fields, then speedball becomes the dominant type of paintball played in the area. If it's big rec fields that are predominant, then that's what gets played the most in those areas. That doesn't mean though that there wouldn't be a market for the other in those areas. If I were to open a field in California for instance, I'd probably open a venue using the higher priced paintballs/lower volume method. Why? Because it's not as widely available and I know there would be a market for it.

not to mention the "cost of business" that comes with that california real estate


I find it funny how everyone trying to complain doesn't own a field or have any direct interaction on any level with the industry (not that I own a park however I did manage one and am opening a store, eventually my own park ) . I.e. they don't know real costs, profit margins, etc... etc....
Maybe we should all put in together for a time machine and we can go back a decade or 2,
you know back when paint was bought by the 10 rd tube EVERYWHERE oh gosh how did paintball ever survive back then being so expensive!!!!



It's really simple, the business is providing a service/entertainment. They aren't merely selling paintballs. You like to run on those 10+ acre woodsball fields with amazing hand made forts etc..... well things have a cost.

Want to save $ / shoot more paint? Go hit up the cheaper field with holes in bunkers, not fully netted, weak staff etc......

Whether you realize it or not a field's biggest $ maker is parties/functions. These people have no idea what paintball is or costs.
Give them a marker package and 500 balls and they'll have a blast/great time and the field can be profittable as well as provide a quality experience for everyone.


At the end of the day if you don't like it, take your $ elsewhere, you can speak by choosing to not do business somewhere. If sales slack off enough perhaps they will consider revamping their model. Otherwise like they say ; if it ain't broke don't fix it.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:07 PM #82
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:52 PM #83
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...........Wanna guess how many helped??? Umm.... Zero... But as soon as it was done, by me hiring a bunch of guys to do the work... guess how many called to see if we sponsored teams??
now that's pretty tough to believe. not even remotely conceivable
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:31 AM #84
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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
Not to speak for Reiner but I am fairly certain he does not have any airball fields.

I would hope that no fields have customers do things like:

"airing up the bunkers if they become deflated, removing old pods that were forgotten, helping out reffing when they are not playing points, possibly even cleaning off the bunkers at the end of the day"

That would make them employees rather than customers.

This industry is so screwed up.
Dan,

I'm not sure where your mind is with these statements. Let me paint you a scenario: a few weeks ago it was very cold, much snow on the ground, so we didn't schedule a lot of referees because we weren't expecting a lot of customers. A group of three young people showed up who had never played paintball and wanted to try it out. The two refs we had available were reffing the small open play and the one small group we had at that point.

The three new players really didn't want to play with anyone else (because of course, in their eyes everyone in open play were professional players and were very scary). While we normally would take the time to introduce them to the open play players and calm their fears, one of my regular customers, a young man 19 or 20 years old, asked if we would mind if he reffed the new players for a few games to help "break them in".

The new players loved it and eventually joined in with the rest of the open players and at the end of the day, swore they would return. They have been back twice since then.

So what's wrong with this?

Sal.
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