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Old 08-19-2010, 11:47 AM #232
Delmarva Paintball
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvman View Post
Open play is expensive?

Funny. The last time I went, I used the half a case I had leftover from the previous visit. Paid nothing for entry and air and had a great time.
So... You brought your paint, paid no entry, paid no air fee.

The field had all the expenses associated with you playing there for the day and you gave them $0.

No wonder you think it's great.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:49 AM #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
So... You brought your paint, paid no entry, paid no air fee.

The field had all the expenses associated with you playing there for the day and you gave them $0.

No wonder you think it's great.
I bought the paint from them at a previous time. They're FPO.

I was another player. A field that has too few customers suffers just as much as one that has too many.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:11 PM #234
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Originally Posted by Shocker115 View Post
-I think the big bonus to cheaper paint prices is organized paintball will become more appealing to people that are still in the woods/backyards. There is a large population of people who don't want to pay a field entry and on top of that have to buy paint that is a lot more money then buying from say walmart or dicks.. These players are just looking to have a good time, and not have to spend a ton of money everytime they play. These players also care more about getting a low cost, rather then have premium paint. If say Hydrotech offered a decent paintball that was comparable to Walmart prices, it would be easier to market to these backyard/woods players..

- This is the reason why the game isn't growing because its a lot cheaper to not play at a field.. These types of players might see a lot more value in a field when paint prices are the same as they are used to.
I think this guy has the right idea. When i first started playing it was in friend's backyards or outlaw fields because i didn't have to pay $60 for paint. I was new. I didn't realize that there was so much of a quality difference in paint nor did i care; i just wanted to shoot people and have fun. And a lot of people showed up to play so i had just as much fun as i would at the real field. Of course that all changed after a few years but at the time is was all i needed to have fun. Sure one guy had an electro and we got overshot a few times but it certainly didn't ruin the experience for us.
Most new players don't care about how good of quality there paint is or realize the difference it makes, they just want to have fun and shoot some people for a few hours.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:11 PM #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvman View Post
I bought the paint from them at a previous time. They're FPO.

I was another player. A field that has too few customers suffers just as much as one that has too many.
Note, however, that the field is not able to operate with this pricing model in place every day. Or even 25% of days.

You're basically giving the field $10/day for your presence after they pay for the paint you use. That might be OK for a small segment of price-discriminated customers (kinda like movie theaters that let senior citizens in for free), but it's not sustainable for the customer base at large.


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Old 08-19-2010, 12:13 PM #236
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Why? Because the other guys you are playing against may be shooting 3 boxes of paint. If you want to be competitive, you too will have to shoot close to that volume. That's the way paintball works. Sure you can play with less than everyone else. But all else being equal, it will put you at a disadvantage.

That's the overall problem with tournament paintball. Most players can't sustain the the overall cost to be competitive. If paintball prices were what they are now and tournament players shot the same amount of paintballs as tournament players shot 20 years ago, then everything would be rosy. But they don't. Players will always play at what I call, at the bottom of their pockets. They will buy as much ammo as their pockets allow and in tournament ball, they tend to buy MORE than their pockets allow which means that only the most dedicated will stick with it for the long run.
But put the "elite tournament player" out of the ecuation.

"Normal" players like me, who go to 1 or 2 local tournaments per year, some big games an some open games, plus 1 or 2 trainnings per month, usually will not use more than 1 case per game. Usually.

How many times you enter with 1 hopper and 4 pods only to be taken out in the first run? There are guys who will shoot 4 pods in one game, but fast paced - good games will usually require less paint. I will not go blind on my style only because I can shoot 3 cases instead of 1. If I spend 40 bucks per day, it is because I can afford that. If the cost where 30 bucks, I think I would save those 10 for next weekend. However, if I know that running out of paint will not cost me an extra 40 bucks, I will play a bit more relaxed.

You can vomit paint in the field, but you can always be overruned by tactics.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:48 PM #237
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Originally Posted by Ghost_079 View Post
"Normal" players like me, who go to 1 or 2 local tournaments per year, some big games an some open games, plus 1 or 2 trainnings per month, usually will not use more than 1 case per game. Usually.
cs.
There is nothing "normal" about this definition.
You play far more frequently and at a much higher level than a true "normal" player.
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:55 PM #238
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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
There is nothing "normal" about this definition.
You play far more frequently and at a much higher level than a true "normal" player.
And yet I still use 1 case per day.

One of the argument here is that with cheaper paint, people will use more just because they can.

I disagree. Of course people will use paint more freely, but to say that those new to the sport will get overshot more frecuently because there will be more paint available is wrong.

People who tend to overshot others will likely do it with or without cheap paint. It is the field who has to enforce rules and avoid these situations. Players (new or old) without any guideline will tend to hurt others or themselves.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:13 PM #239
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
There is nothing low-cost about it. A rental player pays $32 for rental and 500 rounds of paint.

That's, again, the same as a field that charges $128/case and has free rentals.
That's a pretty big assumption. Personally, in my experience since 1998, I've never played at a single field that had free rental, free entry, or free air, regardless of the price of paint. In fact, most of the fields I've played at had relatively similar entry, rental ,and air fees regardless of the wildly different prices they charged for paintballs. Your "mathematical fact" is only really correct if we accept half a dozen implicit assumptions and this false dilemma: fields that charge out the *** for paintballs are actually "cheaper" because they also charge nothing for entry, air, and rentals; plus there's less paint in the air so they get more customers, because the major demographic for entry-level paintball players is, by and large, so frightened of one player having more paintballs than another that they will just as soon not play.

That's a lot of assumptions to have to accept in order for the argument to be valid. Assumptions that are difficult to support in the absence of rather detailed data which no one has offered. Anecdotes are not evidence.

If you really think there's a causal rather than weak or coincidental relationship between the price of paintballs being lower and the growth of paintball slowing down, let's bring back 10 round tubes of oil based paint for $15. And let's ban semi too. It puts too much paint in the air, takes all the strategy out of the game, and just compensates for people with no skills. Remember the explosive growth paintball was experiencing in 1988 versus 2002? I rest my case. Who do these "HydroTec" sons of *****es think they are? Cheaper paintballs? BAH! I say we boycott! Right?

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Old 08-19-2010, 02:14 PM #240
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Any player that has "trainings" (i.e. practice) per month falls into competitive tournament player in my book. A rec player is more like the guy who plays 1 a month and either rents or doesn't own a marker that is PSP legal/capable.

Its all about how the field owner runs the field that dictates the amount of paint shot. I'm from Rochester like Calvman, so I will continue to use his field examples to base my logic.

NVP, the more expensive field ($70) a case is more catered to tournament players than the rec-ball scene. Its not to say that there are no "renters" there, if anything far from it, but the reason why there are more beginning players there than one would expect is because they advertise and promote better than competing fields in the area. That said, the amounting of returning "renters" I see is much less than that of the other field in the area. The reason being is price, not how much they get shot. How do they control this you ask? When the refs notice there are more than 6 tournament players there, games are split into beginning and advanced levels. This allows "renters" to compete on a level playing field with each other and not get lit up.

Performance Paintball, the cheaper field ($50 a case) is as Calvman said, inferior in terms of playing field, but the return rate of starting players is greater. This is because they offer a great value in terms of both paint and fun. The times I've been there I do shoot the same amount of paint than I would at the other field. Why not shoot more if it cost less you ask? I maintain the mentality that these players are just starting out. I aim for masks, markers, and the other less painfull areas to be shot at. That way I don't deter players from returning and I don't spend more money than I need too. I don't play here often though, only because I like to play against players of a more competitive level. At $50 a case though, this doesn't hinder me to be more of ******* and start laneing of the break.

If HydroTec reduces paint production costs, it can only be a good thing. As someone previously stated, I would like to see some savings passed on in paint prices ($5), but the savings that the field owners get to be passed on indirectly to the player (improving field quality).

I don't mind getting shot 6-8 more times than I need to be, but only because I'm used to it from playing tournament level paintball. If I was overshot more than twice in a outing when I first started playing, I would be spending that money on more sensible things like my car or sneakers (ok, not that sensible )
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:22 PM #241
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Originally Posted by Ghost_079 View Post
And yet I still use 1 case per day.

One of the argument here is that with cheaper paint, people will use more just because they can.

I disagree. Of course people will use paint more freely, but to say that those new to the sport will get overshot more frecuently because there will be more paint available is wrong.

People who tend to overshot others will likely do it with or without cheap paint. It is the field who has to enforce rules and avoid these situations. Players (new or old) without any guideline will tend to hurt others or themselves.
I tend to agree that cheaper paint won't cause any more overshooting then there already is.. The paint is not really the problem, fields or refs should establish equal teams before an open play game, that way you don't have all the experienced or all the beginner players on the same team. They should also try and promote team rotations to the players with more skill on different days then open play.

Also cheaper paint would mean more money in players pockets to save up for a better marker or upgrades, if they are feel like they are getting outgunned but still want to keep playing.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:25 PM #242
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Originally Posted by Ghost_079 View Post
And yet I still use 1 case per day.
Which is about 4 times more than "normal", and 4 times less profitable for the field.

Quote:
One of the argument here is that with cheaper paint, people will use more just because they can.
Yep, It happens every day. As the average cost of paintballs has dropped the average consumption of paintballs has risen.

Quote:
I disagree. Of course people will use paint more freely,
Not sure what you disagree with since you admit people will "use paint more freely" aka "use more paint.

Quote:
but to say that those new to the sport will get overshot more frecuently because there will be more paint available is wrong.
I don't think anybody said that. while it does make sense that if there is more paint in the air, more people will get shot... that is not the point at all.

Quote:
People who tend to overshot others will likely do it with or without cheap paint. It is the field who has to enforce rules and avoid these situations. Players (new or old) without any guideline will tend to hurt others or themselves.
Ummmm... Ok. Again, not the point though.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:34 PM #243
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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
I don't think anybody said that. while it does make sense that if there is more paint in the air, more people will get shot...
Actually, that doesn't make any sense at all. The number of people available to be shot doesn't change, and once one team is eliminated, the game is more-or-less over. One MIGHT be able to argue that the same number of people will get hit sooner, but even that isn't the case - people change the way they play so that they don't get shot despite the amount of paint being shot.

In fact, more paint can NOT lead to more people getting shot, otherwise the game would end sooner and no more paint would be used. In order for more paint to be shot, pretty much all of the additional shots have to be misses.

More paint in the air just means people are missing more, and hiding more.

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Old 08-19-2010, 02:42 PM #244
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True Chris, more paint can lead to more hiding. A good example would be the PSP. The ROF cap was lowered to promote more player movement on the field.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:50 PM #245
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Originally Posted by dr.strangelove View Post
If you really think there's a causal rather than weak or coincidental relationship between the price of paintballs being lower and the growth of paintball slowing down,
The relationship is far more than casual. It is staggeringly obvious.

Quote:
let's bring back 10 round tubes of oil based paint for $15.
I have to assume that you are just trying to be silly here. I don't think anybody would want oil based paint for paintball games again.

$15 for 10 round tubes however... I could see that. If you could make them last for an hour and charged $10 for admission, that would be $25 an hour. It would have to be an awesome experience for enough people to see value at that price but there's no telling what people will think of as value. I've seen people pay $40 to have someone dance on their lap for 2 minutes. That's $1200 an hour.

Quote:
And let's ban semi too. It puts too much paint in the air, takes all the strategy out of the game, and just compensates for people with no skills.
If you want to run your field like that and can find a way to make it work... Cool, go for it. Ohhhh. Wait... You were being facetious again.


Quote:
Remember the explosive growth paintball was experiencing in 1988 versus 2002? I rest my case.
Yes... yes I do remember that growth. But just so you know... that growth and the subsequent decline supports the cheaper paintballs are bad for the industry argument.

Quote:
Who do these "HydroTec" sons of *****es think they are? Cheaper paintballs? BAH! I say we boycott! Right?
Why would you have a problem with HydroTec? I'm hoping that they really do have something groundbreaking here. A better fill, or a better shell, or hopefully both can only be good for the game. Wait... You got me again... That was sarcasm. Thing about it though is nobody accept you was saying anything bad about the company.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:56 PM #246
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Actually, that doesn't make any sense at all. The number of people available to be shot doesn't change, and once one team is eliminated, the game is more-or-less over. One MIGHT be able to argue that the same number of people will get hit sooner, but even that isn't the case - people change the way they play so that they don't get shot despite the amount of paint being shot.

In fact, more paint can NOT lead to more people getting shot, otherwise the game would end sooner and no more paint would be used. In order for more paint to be shot, pretty much all of the additional shots have to be misses.

More paint in the air just means people are missing more, and hiding more.

- Chris
He wasn't talking about eliminations. He was talking about people getting shot more than once. It stands to reason that even if the shooting was totally random the same target will indeed get hit more times if there are more shots flying about while that target is still on the field whither he is already eliminated or not..

I would further argue that it really doesn't make much difference how many times they get shot. For many players the experience is already ruined just by having more paint flying around and not hitting them.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:01 PM #247
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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
Which is about 4 times more than "normal", and 4 times less profitable for the field.
Haha, ok, so to avoid this "classification" of players, I can see rentals, normals (those who own their equipment and can play a tournament or BG but dont go to Xball or big/international tounements) and pro players. There are more player profiles but meh...

1 case is far from "normal"? My point is, if I (ME) have access to cheaper paint I doubt I'll use more, 'cause normally 1 case is enough. The profit of a field... depends on the field management. They can try to get a steady number of clients by allowing them to bring supplies, or trying to get the higher profit from the fewer paintballs... or a mixture of both. Paint management is very relevant to a field's succcess, but its only a portion of the overall income of said field.
Fun fact: it seems that 1 day of air+fee+1case of paint is cheaper here than in many areas of the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
Yep, It happens every day. As the average cost of paintballs has dropped the average consumption of paintballs has risen.
Yet there will be people who will not overuse paint just because... if your car can go to 300km/h, you race it all the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
Not sure what you disagree with since you admit people will "use paint more freely" aka "use more paint.
With cheaper paint they will use it knowing that the fun will not stop when they shoot their 200 rounds. If they are really really new to the game I tend to think that they will treasure every shot as I did when started to play, EVEN WITH CHEAP PAINT. I remember picking up paint from the ground, every round was valuable. "Freely" for me means not counting every single ball. You can dive, duck, run and scream, but the fun of the game is still shooting paintballs.

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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
I don't think anybody said that. while it does make sense that if there is more paint in the air, more people will get shot... that is not the point at all.
It was said, that a new player would be scared to be overshot by more experienced players and that cheaper paint would make this happen more often. I disagree, this is not related with the ammount of paint, it is related with the game setup. Also... more people? what, from a 5 people team, 10 will be shot?

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Ummmm... Ok. Again, not the point though.
But it is part of it.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:03 PM #248
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since every1 hated on the 50 cal idea then theyll go the other way and maybe reverse the effect. there maken 100 cal. 100 cal ftw
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:25 PM #249
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Originally Posted by Ghost_079 View Post
Haha, ok, so to avoid this "classification" of players, I can see rentals, normals (those who own their equipment and can play a tournament or BG but dont go to Xball or big/international tounements) and pro players. There are more player profiles but meh...
No need for the extra classifications. normal is the 90% of players that play a handful of times per year or less. You are clearly in the other 10% who play more often.

Quote:
1 case is far from "normal"? My point is, if I (ME) have access to cheaper paint I doubt I'll use more, 'cause normally 1 case is enough.
It really does not matter that you don't shoot more than 1 case since 1 case is already about 4x normal. Just accept the fact that you miss a whole lot.

Quote:
The profit of a field... depends on the field management.
Yes indeed, and pricing structure is the single most important management decision that affects profit.

Quote:
They can try to get a steady number of clients by allowing them to bring supplies, or trying to get the higher profit from the fewer paintballs... or a mixture of both.
Nope, can't have both. You can't have high paint prices and allow customers to bring in their own.

Quote:
Paint management is very relevant to a field's succcess, but its only a portion of the overall income of said field.
The significant profit for a field comes in 3 forms: Entry, Rentals, Paint. If you make less on one category you need to make it up in another.

Am I really having this discussion? 1+1+1=3 or 1+0+2=3... get it?


Quote:
Fun fact: it seems that 1 day of air+fee+1case of paint is cheaper here than in many areas of the US.
That was indeed sort of fun.


Quote:
Yet there will be people who will not overuse paint just because... if your car can go to 300km/h, you race it all the time?
Yet there will be people who WILL use more paint just because. In a similar way to people driving 65mph in a 55 zone... because they can. but that extra 10mph has many implications that are not obvious.


Quote:
With cheaper paint they will use it knowing that the fun will not stop when they shoot their 200 rounds. If they are really really new to the game I tend to think that they will treasure every shot as I did when started to play, EVEN WITH CHEAP PAINT. I remember picking up paint from the ground, every round was valuable. "Freely" for me means not counting every single ball. You can dive, duck, run and scream, but the fun of the game is still shooting paintballs.
Right! The fun won't stop after 200 rounds because they can afford to shoot 1000 or 2000. So they will just keep shooting until they can't afford it anymore. With an entire field of players doing this... Guess what? Yep! Lots more paint in the air!!! Maybe you are starting to catch on... nah, I doubt it.

I
Quote:
t was said, that a new player would be scared to be overshot by more experienced players and that cheaper paint would make this happen more often.
Well, I never said that but like I suggested... seems like the math makes it a little more likely for players to get shot more often if there is more paint in the air. But... Once again... Not the point.

Quote:
I disagree, this is not related with the ammount of paint, it is related with the game setup. Also... more people? what, from a 5 people team, 10 will be shot?
Yep, the game structure has much to do with how many times people get shot. if you do reinsertions for example... the possable number of times you get hit goes up.

Quote:
But it is part of it.
not a very important part.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:31 PM #250
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Originally Posted by dr.strangelove View Post
let's bring back 10 round tubes of oil based paint for $15.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:41 PM #251
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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
The relationship is far more than casual. It is staggeringly obvious.
I said causal, not casual, and no, that's not a misspelling.

Quote:
But just so you know... that growth and the subsequent decline supports the cheaper paintballs are bad for the industry argument.
Only if you accept that it took 15 years for the variable "paint prices go down" to have the corresponding effect of "player participation goes down". Using this logic, lowering prices now won't affect player participation until 2025, so what do we have to worry about?

Quote:
You got me again... That was sarcasm. Thing about it though is nobody accept you was saying anything bad about the company.
But it only makes sense right? Since making cheaper paintballs is literally going to destroy the industry by preventing any new players from playing, the only sensible thing we can do is boycott. We have to boycott to save the industry. There's just no other alternative.

*edit* My being facetious is merely to illustrate the ridiculousness of the hysteria you all are experiencing at the prospect of paintballs becoming cheaper. If wholesale prices went down to, say $12 per box of 2000 and retail prices went down to, say, $30 per box of 2000, I really don't think it would be a catastrophe of monumental proportion.

Last edited by dr.strangelove : 08-19-2010 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:51 PM #252
raehl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
He wasn't talking about eliminations. He was talking about people getting shot more than once. It stands to reason that even if the shooting was totally random the same target will indeed get hit more times if there are more shots flying about while that target is still on the field whither he is already eliminated or not..

I would further argue that it really doesn't make much difference how many times they get shot. For many players the experience is already ruined just by having more paint flying around and not hitting them.
Ah, in that case, as I suspect you suspect, I agree wholeheartedly.

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