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Old 01-24-2011, 03:23 PM #127
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Some people are bisexual and choose to go one way or the other, T3H MA$TA, rather than trying to have two relationships all the time.

Treghc you completely misunderstood my point. I have entertained the idea that it could be purely genetic. Science has entertained that idea too, and found it incorrect in many cases. My point is that many gay people seem to dogmatically stick to this idea that it's completely genetic when in fact it's not (there are other factors in most cases, for example there is very solid evidence that sexual abuse in early life increases the chances of turning out gay), just as many people dogmatically stick to the idea that it's entirely a choice when that's clearly not the case either.

In any case, whether somebody is gay or not is irrelevant to how much they know about what made them gay. They may be able to know whether it was a choice or not (and I believe them when they say it's not), but they cannot know whether it was entirely genetic or not better than anyone else can short of decent scientific study.

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Old 01-24-2011, 11:09 PM #128
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To those that believe homosexuality can be conquered with nurture... if given counseling, could you be convinced to turn gay?
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:18 PM #129
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Most of the evidence points to orientation being determined prior to adolescence, so probably not.

That said, there's plenty of evidence and examples of straight men in prisons engaging in homosexual acts apparently against their actual orientation. I'd say that orientation isn't so much a black and white "gay straight or bi" thing as it is a sliding scale, with almost nobody 100% at one end or the other.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:30 PM #130
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Excellent idea! You should start by finding a nice island and gathering all the people who think segregation is a good idea and moving there. Maybe then you can invite the sociopaths that have a inclination towards eugenics (this refers to your post in the atheist argument thread).
Ok fine, throw everyone of all cultures and ideologies together in the mix and see how well society functions. Oh that's right it isn't working. The melting pot isn't actually combining all the ingredients into one final product is it? Oh **** we still have animosity towards religions, cultures, sexuality, race? What the hell is going on, you mean years of PC brainwash aren't working?

It's not even eugenics so much as promoting competition in society. Challenges promote excellence. Don't reward failure and laziness. It's not hard stuff.

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Uhhhhhh. What? Every single gay individual i know has clearly stated that they have always been gay and that it was never a choice. the only case that i know where that could even be legitimately suspect from an outside perspective is the case of the father of one of my friends from highschool. his parents got divorced in middle/high school and then it turned out the husband was gay. Fact is, and im sure it happens quite often, he (the dad) was so persecuted for being gay in highschool that he cut ties with everyone he knew, family included (none of them accepted him either), moved away and started college as a straight man. met my friends mom, got married, had 3 kids. divorced. then came out officially again.

from the combined experiences of my life. i can say people are born gay.
Yeah I never said that didn't happen, in fact I make a point to address THE FACT that people ARE born gay. I also addressed the fact that there are those who choose to be gay, maybe because they were curious or overly promiscuous. Who the hell knows who the hell cares. You ignored the main point of my post saying it doesn't matter whether or not people are born gay, they are going to be here regardless.

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Old 01-25-2011, 07:48 PM #131
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Ok fine, throw everyone of all cultures and ideologies together in the mix and see how well society functions. Oh that's right it isn't working. The melting pot isn't actually combining all the ingredients into one final product is it?
Um, actually, it is, albeit slowly.

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Oh **** we still have animosity towards religions, cultures, sexuality, race?
Certain groups seem to be holding on to this more than others... *cough cough*

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Yeah I never said that didn't happen, in fact I make a point to address THE FACT that people ARE born gay. I also addressed the fact that there are those who choose to be gay, maybe because they were curious or overly promiscuous. Who the hell knows who the hell cares. You ignored the main point of my post saying it doesn't matter whether or not people are born gay, they are going to be here regardless.
Yup. Might as well let them get married.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:10 PM #132
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Yeah I never said that didn't happen, in fact I make a point to address THE FACT that people ARE born gay. I also addressed the fact that there are those who choose to be gay, maybe because they were curious or overly promiscuous. Who the hell knows who the hell cares. You ignored the main point of my post saying it doesn't matter whether or not people are born gay, they are going to be here regardless.
With that mindset, how can you be against gays having equal rights? and i would love to hear your evidence of "tolerance (of gays) leads to errosion of community values/unity."

or at a more basic level ... how their life has ANY negative effect on your life? that seems to be the one question that no one can answer if theyre opposed to gay marriage/rights.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:36 PM #133
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If there is a negative effect it's to do with them raising children - there are a bunch of studies on the effects. Some are positive, some are negative, but the nature of gay rights these days is such that the results are largely ignored either way.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:03 PM #134
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in my honest opinion that sounds like conjecture at best. and the fact is that some people, regardless of sexual orientation, are going to be good parents and some people are going to be bad parents. if youre really worried about children being raised in a negative environment, why not limit the number of children a couple can have according to their education level or income? i guarantee that would solve a lot more problems than trying to prevent gays from adopting children.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:10 PM #135
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If there is a negative effect it's to do with them raising children - there are a bunch of studies on the effects. Some are positive, some are negative, but the nature of gay rights these days is such that the results are largely ignored either way.
do they give out free babies at weddings now?
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:12 PM #136
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These arguments against equal rights/freedoms for gays are so adolescent, it hurts. I can't believe people can really be so naïve. Yet again, it's the ones with religious backgrounds. One more bullet point for me to add to my list of reasons to hate the mind-numbing products of religion. I'll just ignore this thread completely here on out.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:15 PM #137
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It's funny, I met a gay guy a few years ago who believed it would be wrong for him to raise children. Odd perspective.

*If* there is decent evidence for gay families being substandard as a general rule outside of other factors (and I haven't seen any/much) then it would make perfect sense to bar gay couples from adopting assuming that your goal is to only allow adoption into ideal circumstances. If. Of course if you were to go down that road you'd need to bar single parents from adopting as well since that's also less than ideal. Heck, you could go a lot further. It seems to be acknowledged by government however that there probably isn't such thing as a perfect family, so as long as the individuals concerned are considered fit for the job then they're allowed to adopt. I can't really argue with that.

Teh Masta the studies are out there and they do show some interesting trends (cbf looking them up right now). Whether you or I would consider them justification for limitations on things like adoption I don't know, I'd personally need to see how much of an effect there is especially when compared to other types of families such as single parent.

I don't approach this from a "gays should have no rights unless they can prove otherwise" perspective. Treg, you might notice that at no point have I actually been actively arguing against gay rights. I don't however believe that just because our culture has accepted homosexuality we should immediately allow marriage, adoption etc. without at least seriously considering the implications. If there are no implications then that's all good, really.

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Old 01-25-2011, 10:39 PM #138
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:02 PM #139
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I don't however believe that just because our culture has accepted homosexuality we should immediately allow marriage, adoption etc. without at least seriously considering the implications. If there are no implications then that's all good, really.
It already is pretty clear that there are no implications. Religious people, quite obviously, make up the vast majority of the people that oppose gay rights in this country and its obvious as **** that the only reason people do oppose it is because of their religion.
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:17 PM #140
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You seem to have lost interest in a rational discussion.

I'll bow out here.

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Old 01-25-2011, 11:46 PM #141
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i still cant seem to catch up to the part where you think an argument against gay parents can also be used against gay marriage.

why are you even bringing up the subject of gay parents?
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:58 AM #142
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Yet again, it's the ones with religious backgrounds.
Which "religious" people are you speaking of? No one in here has said anything of being "against equal rights/freedoms for gays". Actually almost everyone here has said that they are against the gay marriage ban. The only person who has even made a point against removing the gay marriage ban has been vijil, and all he has been saying is that we should think about the consequences of making a huge change before we do it... Like really, I would love to visit the crazy little world that you live in where everyone is against you, but unfortunately I can't because I'm stuck in real life.
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Old 01-26-2011, 05:05 PM #143
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That said, there's plenty of evidence and examples of straight men in prisons engaging in homosexual acts apparently against their actual orientation. I'd say that orientation isn't so much a black and white "gay straight or bi" thing as it is a sliding scale, with almost nobody 100% at one end or the other.
There are psychological studies which demonstrate that homosexual relations and prison rape are two very different things. One is about sexual attraction and love, the other is about dominance.
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:11 PM #144
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It's funny, I met a gay guy a few years ago who believed it would be wrong for him to raise children. Odd perspective.
I'm straight, and until just recently I believed it would be wrong for me to raise children. Is that an odd perspective? Or was it only odd because it came from a gay man?
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I don't however believe that just because our culture has accepted homosexuality we should immediately allow marriage, adoption etc. without at least seriously considering the implications.
What, pray tell, would be the negative implications to allowing gay marriage? That the divorce rate would go up? That's hard to imagine. That people who are in caring long-term relationships would be recognized by the law and society? Sounds terrible.


I know you're trying real hard, but your homophobia is showing.
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:21 PM #145
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I'm straight, and until just recently I believed it would be wrong for me to raise children. Is that an odd perspective? Or was it only odd because it came from a gay man?
He obviously meant that they gay man thought it was wrong to have kids because he was gay. Don't nitpick. And of course it would be odd for a gay man to think that it's wrong for him to raise kids...

Arguing semantics just makes you look petty.
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:40 PM #146
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He obviously meant that they gay man thought it was wrong to have kids because he was gay. Don't nitpick.
I'm not arguing semantics. He picked a specific and single case in an attempt to make a reader generalize that gay people don't really want to raise children, so it's not a big deal that it's more difficult for them to adopt.

Did you really not see the motive behind his post? You said it yourself,
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of course it would be odd for a gay man to think that it's wrong for him to raise kids...
... so why bring it up?
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:11 PM #147
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Ok fine, throw everyone of all cultures and ideologies together in the mix and see how well society functions. Oh that's right it isn't working. The melting pot isn't actually combining all the ingredients into one final product is it? Oh **** we still have animosity towards religions, cultures, sexuality, race? What the hell is going on, you mean years of PC brainwash aren't working?
Look at race relations or the attitude this country has towards gays. Compare each successive generation and tell me that when you expose different groups to each other on a regular basis they don't learn to accept each other. It's a slow and painful process, but progress does happen. The problem often lies when people remain segregated from each other. This allows people to think of different groups as a faceless other that has no worth to them.

I don't want to sound like a dick or seem like I'm trying to make myself out to be superior to you, but do you mind if I ask how old you are and how much exposure you've had to people who are different from you (race, religion, creed or income level)? You seem to have a lot of very harsh and hardened opinions that don't leave much room for the gray area that so much of life falls into. I was once that way before I was exposed to different people/situations and began to contemplate my philosophy on life. I'm much more forgiving now and tend to take my time and evaluate each situation as it comes rather than immediately labeling it. Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot to learn and have a ton of flaws and I may have you pegged completely wrong. But that's what I'm getting from your words.

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It's not even eugenics so much as promoting competition in society. Challenges promote excellence. Don't reward failure and laziness. It's not hard stuff.
You talked about letting people who are a drag on society starve to death. You said not everyone deserves to live just because they're a human being. Combine that with your rhetoric on hard work and creating excellence, and I'd say I'm justified in saying your words have a slight lean towards eugenics. I'm not saying you'd condone eugenics, just that one could misconstrue your words as an endorsement of that direction. It doesn't take much to go from leaning that way to being all the way there.
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