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Old 01-21-2011, 03:47 PM #106
hsilman
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
This, I like to see.

But, I've also seen you still support the idea of gay people being sinners. So, which side are you actually choosing?

I'd bring up the contradictions you just provided of a supposedly "omniscient" God, but that would lead down another path that would take this thread off topic.

If you can follow that statement fully, then how can you oppose the idea of gay marriage and/or equal rights for gays? I've seen your posts about your ideas as far as gay people being sinners go, and you do still believe they are sinners, but at least you're not nearly as extreme as to say they shouldn't be accepted by any community.
well the new testament still discusses homosexuality and such as being unnatural, though it's debatable.

The message of the new testament is not that everything is permissible(in the positive sense, ie not bad), but that we are all sinners and therefore grace is the solution for everyone.

1Cor23-24

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:50 PM #107
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"Originally posted by Umami: Please let me have your babies. I want my children to have at least one parent that isn't retarded."
270! It's been a while. Hahaha... someone angry? How Christian of you! But I must admit I'm curious, why would I ask permission when I've already ****ed you?

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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
This, I like to see.

But, I've also seen you still support the idea of gay people being sinners. So, which side are you actually choosing?

I'd bring up the contradictions you just provided of a supposedly "omniscient" God, but that would lead down another path that would take this thread off topic.

If you can follow that statement fully, then how can you oppose the idea of gay marriage and/or equal rights for gays? I've seen your posts about your ideas as far as gay people being sinners go, and you do still believe they are sinners, but at least you're not nearly as extreme as to say they shouldn't be accepted by any community.
I can't wait to see the Bible quote mining done for this response...

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23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
So how is it beneficial/constructive/for the good of others for gay people to not acknowlege who they are?

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Old 01-21-2011, 03:57 PM #108
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I'm not arguing they shouldn't. My position on homosexuality is radically different from mainstream Christianity, so I'm not going to bother discussing it.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:59 PM #109
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Yeah, I know. When it comes to your posts, I'm more or less curious how you got somewhere so different from others of the same faith, and why more haven't taken the same path.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:17 PM #110
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
This, I like to see.

But, I've also seen you still support the idea of gay people being sinners. So, which side are you actually choosing?

I'd bring up the contradictions you just provided of a supposedly "omniscient" God, but that would lead down another path that would take this thread off topic.

If you can follow that statement fully, then how can you oppose the idea of gay marriage and/or equal rights for gays? I've seen your posts about your ideas as far as gay people being sinners go, and you do still believe they are sinners, but at least you're not nearly as extreme as to say they shouldn't be accepted by any community.
I think you are confusing sin with law. It is sinful in both the old and new testament to be sinful. The law of the old testament was to punish those who did those things. The "law of the spirit" is to forgive people and love people. Doesn't change the fact that it is a sin, just changes how we are supposed to respond to sinners.

At least that is my interpretation.

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270! It's been a while.
Ya, I am trying not to participate in the troll-fests that these threads become. Just here to clarify things to keep conversations going in a positive direction.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:20 PM #111
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I think you are confusing sin with law. It is sinful in both the old and new testament to be sinful. The law of the old testament was to punish those who did those things. The "law of the spirit" is to forgive people and love people. Doesn't change the fact that it is a sin, just changes how we are supposed to respond to sinners.

At least that is my interpretation.
So where does treating homosexual couples as lesser citizens than heterosexual couples fall in that worldview?

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Ya, I am trying not to participate in the troll-fests that these threads become. Just here to clarify things to keep conversations going in a positive direction.
It's very telling that you see an opposing viewpoint you cannot effectively address as trolling. And there's absolutely no way your sig could be seen as trolling, either. You are so clearly above it, I don't know what to say.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:30 PM #112
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So where does treating homosexual couples as lesser citizens than heterosexual couples fall in that worldview?
I believe that we are all sinners. Why would I treat one type of sinner any differently than another?

*I have heard the argument that we sin while they "live in sin" and feel like it is a ridiculous argument. I actually had a preacher tell me that he would never let a homosexual preach in his church. I asked him if he ever sinned, and why his sin is any different than that mans. His reasoning was that he didn't "live in sin" like those people did. Needless to say, I don't go to that church anymore...

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It's very telling that you see an opposing viewpoint you cannot effectively address as trolling. And there's absolutely no way your sig could be seen as trolling, either. You are so clearly above it, I don't know what to say.
I'm not gonna argue about whether this place is a troll-fest or not. Maybe flame-fest was a better word, anyways. People don't troll a lot in here. Just flame like the Human Torch.

And the sig was a joke. If it really offends you, I will take it down.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:16 PM #113
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I believe that we are all sinners. Why would I treat one type of sinner any differently than another?

*I have heard the argument that we sin while they "live in sin" and feel like it is a ridiculous argument. I actually had a preacher tell me that he would never let a homosexual preach in his church. I asked him if he ever sinned, and why his sin is any different than that mans. His reasoning was that he didn't "live in sin" like those people did. Needless to say, I don't go to that church anymore...
That's a much more respectable approach, but I do have to ask: do you support gay marriage? Or do you support 100% equal rights for gay couples?

And yes, your sig is rather a rather adamant case of trolling.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:29 PM #114
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That's a much more respectable approach, but I do have to ask: do you support gay marriage? Or do you support 100% equal rights for gay couples?
I believe that homosexuals deserve every right that a straight person does. It is not the government's position to enforce Biblical morality. Honestly, I don't think God needs or would even want a ban on gay marriage. If God wanted us to be forced to follow his law, then why give us free will to begin with. I believe that God doesn't want us to follow his law, but to choose to follow his law. If there really is a sovereign God, he could obviously make us be sinless by force, but he choose to give us a choice. Who am I to do any different?

*My opinion
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:28 PM #115
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Again, your view on this topic is much more respectable, in my opinion. As long as you're able to treat another human being as... another human being, then I have no quarrel. Unfortunately, religious people with your view on the topic are very few and far between.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:33 PM #116
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Again, your view on this topic is much more respectable, in my opinion. As long as you're able to treat another human being as... another human being, then I have no quarrel. Unfortunately, religious people with your view on the topic are very few and far between.
Well thank you.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:45 PM #117
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To be honest. I think you are all taking the wrong perspective here. It truthfully doesn't matter how or why people are gay. Tolerating it or condemning it based on it being natural or unnatural is a worthless pursuit. The fact of the matter is, these people are here. Instead we should focus on what to do with them rather than applying this tolerate or condemn game.

Just to side track for a minute. If God is the source of all things in existence, then homosexuality is a product of God. For him to create it then condemn it is absurd. I think people attribute the act to "a choice" for the same reason as sin being man/satans fault. God being this benevolent authority and embodiment of all that is good and created evil. To solve the problem, tree of knowledge of good and evil/satan was born. To solve the gay problem, it solely became a choice matter.

There are many "choosers" out there, and many which were genetically predisposed. It doesn't matter. the real question is, do we tolerate their behavior and their culture or do we separate ourselves so both can enjoy our separate lifestyles? Because, it's not just as simple as "what two people do in their bedroom." Tolerating leads to errosion of community values/unity and condemning leads to national persecution. Instead, do the rational thing and say, "go to the castro district and make a life for yourself. Find happiness there (or any gay community anywhere)" Everyone wins. Why force people who find another people's behavior repulsive and immoral to live together? You certainly will have a hard time building a strong tight nit society around that.

I think this should be applied to more situations than just gays. For example, Christian communities shouldn't have to "tolerate" a giant mosque in the center of town. There's plenty of spots for a Muslim community elsewhere. Afterall, how do you establish a value system out of a hodge podge of conflicting value systems?

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Old 01-23-2011, 07:27 PM #118
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Of course! Separate but equal! If only we'd tried that sooner.
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:37 PM #119
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Just to side track for a minute. If God is the source of all things in existence, then homosexuality is a product of God. For him to create it then condemn it is absurd. I think people attribute the act to "a choice" for the same reason as sin being man/satans fault. God being this benevolent authority and embodiment of all that is good and created evil. To solve the problem, tree of knowledge of good and evil/satan was born. To solve the gay problem, it solely became a choice matter.
Made me lol.

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Of course! Separate but equal! If only we'd tried that sooner.
Made me lol again.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:51 PM #120
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:06 PM #121
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Of course! Separate but equal! If only we'd tried that sooner.
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:07 PM #122
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KShaw's attitude bothers me a little. Whether or not there is any choice in the matter, the stubborn refusal of many gays to even entertain the notion that their orientation may be more than just genetic (despite evidence) reveals some interesting things about the culture we live in.

"Yeah, I know. When it comes to your posts, I'm more or less curious how you got somewhere so different from others of the same faith, and why more haven't taken the same path."

I probably fall into the same category - I'm a Christian who believes evolution and the early universe occurred much as mainstream science says it did. I differ with atheists on philosophical grounds while agreeing for the most part on the scientific.

As far as gays preaching in church goes 270, what your pastor most likely meant by "living in sin" would be better said as "openly and deliberately embracing sin". I wouldn't let an unrepentant compulsive liar preach in a church if they didn't believe lying to be a sin, simply because they would be disagreeing with the core principals of the church. It would be like letting an NRA leader give the keynote at a pacifist rally. It simply doesn't make sense, and the same applies.

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Old 01-23-2011, 10:23 PM #123
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there is a gay gene.. So God must have created it!

edit: HAaaaay!
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:50 AM #124
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
To be honest. I think you are all taking the wrong perspective here. It truthfully doesn't matter how or why people are gay. Tolerating it or condemning it based on it being natural or unnatural is a worthless pursuit. The fact of the matter is, these people are here. Instead we should focus on what to do with them rather than applying this tolerate or condemn game.

Just to side track for a minute. If God is the source of all things in existence, then homosexuality is a product of God. For him to create it then condemn it is absurd. I think people attribute the act to "a choice" for the same reason as sin being man/satans fault. God being this benevolent authority and embodiment of all that is good and created evil. To solve the problem, tree of knowledge of good and evil/satan was born. To solve the gay problem, it solely became a choice matter.

There are many "choosers" out there, and many which were genetically predisposed. It doesn't matter. the real question is, do we tolerate their behavior and their culture or do we separate ourselves so both can enjoy our separate lifestyles? Because, it's not just as simple as "what two people do in their bedroom." Tolerating leads to errosion of community values/unity and condemning leads to national persecution. Instead, do the rational thing and say, "go to the castro district and make a life for yourself. Find happiness there (or any gay community anywhere)" Everyone wins. Why force people who find another people's behavior repulsive and immoral to live together? You certainly will have a hard time building a strong tight nit society around that.

I think this should be applied to more situations than just gays. For example, Christian communities shouldn't have to "tolerate" a giant mosque in the center of town. There's plenty of spots for a Muslim community elsewhere. Afterall, how do you establish a value system out of a hodge podge of conflicting value systems?
Excellent idea! You should start by finding a nice island and gathering all the people who think segregation is a good idea and moving there. Maybe then you can invite the sociopaths that have a inclination towards eugenics (this refers to your post in the atheist argument thread).
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:35 PM #125
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KShaw's attitude bothers me a little. Whether or not there is any choice in the matter, the stubborn refusal of many gays to even entertain the notion that their orientation may be more than just genetic (despite evidence) reveals some interesting things about the culture we live in.
Wait, what? You think you know more about being gay and the deciding factors thereof than those who are, indeed, gay? To think not entertain the idea of a predisposed genetic altercation being the only source of foundational difference between a straight person and a gay person reveals just as much about the culture we live as what you have stated. Your argument reeks of selfishness. How does the view look from up there?
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:00 PM #126
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There are many "choosers" out there, and many which were genetically predisposed.
Uhhhhhh. What? Every single gay individual i know has clearly stated that they have always been gay and that it was never a choice. the only case that i know where that could even be legitimately suspect from an outside perspective is the case of the father of one of my friends from highschool. his parents got divorced in middle/high school and then it turned out the husband was gay. Fact is, and im sure it happens quite often, he (the dad) was so persecuted for being gay in highschool that he cut ties with everyone he knew, family included (none of them accepted him either), moved away and started college as a straight man. met my friends mom, got married, had 3 kids. divorced. then came out officially again.

from the combined experiences of my life. i can say people are born gay.
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