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Old 01-17-2011, 09:14 PM #85
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There is no scientific evidence...
nice...



And for my contribution:

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Old 01-20-2011, 06:40 PM #86
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if a man lays with another man he is a sinner and shouldnt be accepted by any church or community
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:02 PM #87
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if a man lays with another man he is a sinner and shouldnt be accepted by any church or community
Prejudice against those with lifestyles that have no effect on you is such a Christ-like thing to do.

This whole gay thing is in direct contradiction to

Ephesians 4:32
Quote:
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you
By believing in

Leviticus 20:13
Quote:
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.
You must follow the word of God and put these sinners to death. Why aren't you out doing so? And if you're going to follow Leviticus 20:13, you also have to follow Leviticus 25:44, which states:

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Where are your slaves?

Or how about the Bible telling you to execute disobedient children? Surely, at some point in your life, you disobeyed your parents. Why are you still alive?

Rhetorical questions, really. You're a Christian. You pick and choose what you want out of a man-made scripture so that it correlates to your preconceived prejudice's and moral standings.

Please, provide me with an answer as to how a gay man would interfere with anything in your life? Have you been raped by a gay man?
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:32 PM #88
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Prejudice against those with lifestyles that have no effect on you is such a Christ-like thing to do.

This whole gay thing is in direct contradiction to

Ephesians 4:32


By believing in

Leviticus 20:13


You must follow the word of God and put these sinners to death. Why aren't you out doing so? And if you're going to follow Leviticus 20:13, you also have to follow Leviticus 25:44, which states:



Where are your slaves?

Or how about the Bible telling you to execute disobedient children? Surely, at some point in your life, you disobeyed your parents. Why are you still alive?

Rhetorical questions, really. You're a Christian. You pick and choose what you want out of a man-made scripture so that it correlates to your preconceived prejudice's and moral standings.

Please, provide me with an answer as to how a gay man would interfere with anything in your life? Have you been raped by a gay man?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

I'm not saying it's "the" answer, but it's a compelling theory as to the differences between "The Law" and Christ's teachings.
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:47 PM #89
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Ridiculous thread, look at it in its simplist terms. A guy CHOOSES himself, aside from anything (religion, social influence) to like other men. This could have added up over time by social influence, or whatever but the bottom line is it happened. How do you know your not gay? I don't, admittedly...have I shown signs of if, no.

I can choose to pretend to be gay, or pretend to know about everything(religion). But the truth is we don't know, there will always be things we don't know.

Sorta strayed offcourse because theres not much to say.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:12 PM #90
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Yes a man may choose to himself but at the same time there has to be at least a slight chemical difference, or a difference in the brain that may spark those thoughts. It's not as if every male was born straight as an arrow then decided to want to be gay the next day. Something at birth kick starts the initial step and nurture would then decide how far those feelings progress.

Question though, a genuine honest question no offense or arguement intended to start from this, following your statement does that mean catholic priests who molest little boys choose to be gay in their acts of doing so by choice?
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:34 PM #91
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Why can't it be both ways?

I can't remember which part of the brain it is (connective tissue between the two hemispheres), but in gay men, it's been shown to be smaller than in heterosexual men. This is only true part of the time though, not all gay men are like that.

- According to my psychology professor

And if that's true, what about those gay men that don't show any biological difference from heterosexual men? Couldn't they have chosen?


I know the point of this is whether some babies are actually born gay, but I'd say it's a combination of both biological and social influence that results in a homosexual.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:47 PM #92
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Originally Posted by Splatter Effect View Post
Yes a man may choose to himself but at the same time there has to be at least a slight chemical difference, or a difference in the brain that may spark those thoughts. It's not as if every male was born straight as an arrow then decided to want to be gay the next day. Something at birth kick starts the initial step and nurture would then decide how far those feelings progress.

Question though, a genuine honest question no offense or arguement intended to start from this, following your statement does that mean catholic priests who molest little boys choose to be gay in their acts of doing so by choice?
pederasty /= homosexuality.

but there's some element of choice in the matter, sure.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:33 PM #93
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pederasty /= homosexuality.

but there's some element of choice in the matter, sure.
Which gay men/women have you met that told you they just woke up one day and decided to be gay?

edit -


Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

I'm not saying it's "the" answer, but it's a compelling theory as to the differences between "The Law" and Christ's teachings.
From what I read, that does not answer anything along the lines of either choosing to listen to the Bible and put gay sinners to death or treat everyone as equal, as Jesus says. If you're going to say that gay people are sinners, then you must follow through with the rest of the text. If you choose to follow Jesus' sayings, then you have to admit the Bible being wrong or at least in direct contradiction (or Jesus in direct contradiction to the Bible).

Bare in mind that I'm under the mindset that once a single falsification is found in a document/belief, then the entire document/belief cannot be held as truth. I will never be satisfied with those who pick and choose only certain lines to follow within their own holy scripture.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:49 PM #94
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I never understood this question because it implies babies are born with a sexual preference. The only way you could realistically tell is if you purposefully took twins away at birth and raised them under different lifestyles to see how they turned out. There are too many ethical dilemmas related to that so it's not going to happen in a scientific manner or one that has verifiable results.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:59 PM #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Bare in mind that I'm under the mindset that once a single falsification is found in a document/belief, then the entire document/belief cannot be held as truth. I will never be satisfied with those who pick and choose only certain lines to follow within their own holy scripture.
You haven't look at many law books lately. When they repeal or change the law (as in sometimes necessary to do), the old law isn't removed from the books. Instead the newer law in opposition to it overrides the previous law.

For example, the U.S. Constitution and it's amendments still say "...the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited". The 18th amendment, prohibiting alcohol, is still on the books. But it is of course legal to buy a case of Bud, or my preference a bottle of top shelf Vodka, since a later amendment, the 21st, allows it.

Like the U.S. Constitution at one time the Bible was a living document, with new revelations overriding the old.

Really my only problem with the Bible is that the stopped adding to it.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:25 PM #96
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Treghc's point is that people who are against homosexuals from a religious standpoint are reading from the "18th amendment" as if it's still the law, when they should live by the "21st" (The teachings of Jesus).
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:38 PM #97
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Quote:
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Treghc's point is that people who are against homosexuals from a religious standpoint are reading from the "18th amendment" as if it's still the law, when they should live by the "21st" (The teachings of Jesus).
That's not how his point is coming across. It's got a little too much "Aha! Logical fallacy! You fools!" showing.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:44 PM #98
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You haven't look at many law books lately. When they repeal or change the law (as in sometimes necessary to do), the old law isn't removed from the books. Instead the newer law in opposition to it overrides the previous law.

For example, the U.S. Constitution and it's amendments still say "...the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited". The 18th amendment, prohibiting alcohol, is still on the books. But it is of course legal to buy a case of Bud, or my preference a bottle of top shelf Vodka, since a later amendment, the 21st, allows it.

Like the U.S. Constitution at one time the Bible was a living document, with new revelations overriding the old.

Really my only problem with the Bible is that the stopped adding to it.
That's great and works just fine for the Constitution. But where, inside the Bible, are such claims turned around to be something else? I haven't seen anything directly addressing the statements of stoning disobedient children, executing gays, etc. and saying that such statements were wrong. Your own statement really proves very little, if anything at all.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:07 AM #99
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That's great and works just fine for the Constitution. But where, inside the Bible, are such claims turned around to be something else? I haven't seen anything directly addressing the statements of stoning disobedient children, executing gays, etc. and saying that such statements were wrong. Your own statement really proves very little, if anything at all.
Wasn't intended to prove anything, just showing a different perspective.

So some bible thumper shows up spouting anti-gay rhetoric, pointing at some Old Testament passage for justification, and you wish to diffuse the anger you have two choices...

Attempt to destroy his entire outlook on life and personal philosophy by nit-picking his source material, hoping it causes a 180 degree shift in perspective instead of causing him to feel persecuted (which will reinforce his current belief), and praying (metaphorically speaking) that his new perspective aligns in such a way as to permit the new point of view on the subject.

or...

Show him that his current hatred is incompatible with his professed doctrine, and giving him a more recent passage to use as a new justification.

The second is usually more effective.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:04 AM #100
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The most appropriate response is the following.

Who the **** are you to treat a fellow human being helps that old lady cross the street, who goes to work, who pays their taxes, who is capable of love, and loves their country as less than yourself? WELL? WHO THE **** ARE YOU?

Keep hiding behind the Bible, fine. Just remember, your God can see your true intentions. What kind of God do you worship?
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:20 AM #101
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Wasn't intended to prove anything, just showing a different perspective.

So some bible thumper shows up spouting anti-gay rhetoric, pointing at some Old Testament passage for justification, and you wish to diffuse the anger you have two choices...

Attempt to destroy his entire outlook on life and personal philosophy by nit-picking his source material, hoping it causes a 180 degree shift in perspective instead of causing him to feel persecuted (which will reinforce his current belief), and praying (metaphorically speaking) that his new perspective aligns in such a way as to permit the new point of view on the subject.

or...

Show him that his current hatred is incompatible with his professed doctrine, and giving him a more recent passage to use as a new justification.

The second is usually more effective.
I did just that. I said you can either choose one path or the other. If one choice (Jesus' teachings) is made, path A is given. If the other choice is made (Leviticus), path B is given. Guess what? They contradict. You can't pick and choose pieces of what you want and proclaim yourself a follow of said theistic belief which relies on the writings and teachings inside a piece scripture.

If he wants to proclaim his bigotry against people that do no more harm against society and no more wrong than any other "normal" person, then he can go ahead and do so... and I will call him out on his idiotic behavior each and every time. You want to just give in and be passive aggressive about it? I'm not that type of person. If you're going to be a dumby, I'll call you out on it. Pretty simple.

They're ****ing people, just like you and me. To tell them that they shouldn't be accepted in any community is plain ignorance and hatred towards a person for their own beliefs. Religion is supposed to bring some sort of morality to people (that's a common defense used), yet things like this are allowed. It's bull****. I'm not going to sit back and let it fly.

To think some "all loving" God is going to say it's okay for you hate on people for their choices that literally do absolutely no harm is plain retarded. There's no other way around it. Such bigotry is detrimental to our society and our species' ability to advance and live better lives.

If you're going to sit there and defend this behavior, then I will do my best to show your level of ignorance and/or contradictory beliefs as well. I'm not one to *****foot around the deal at hand.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:25 AM #102
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were you born straight? or did you chose to be straight? at what age did you decide?
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:37 AM #103
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Which gay men/women have you met that told you they just woke up one day and decided to be gay?

edit -




From what I read, that does not answer anything along the lines of either choosing to listen to the Bible and put gay sinners to death or treat everyone as equal, as Jesus says. If you're going to say that gay people are sinners, then you must follow through with the rest of the text. If you choose to follow Jesus' sayings, then you have to admit the Bible being wrong or at least in direct contradiction (or Jesus in direct contradiction to the Bible).

Bare in mind that I'm under the mindset that once a single falsification is found in a document/belief, then the entire document/belief cannot be held as truth. I will never be satisfied with those who pick and choose only certain lines to follow within their own holy scripture.
Uhh, how closely did you read that link? Christus Victor says that the law established in the old testament was from the Devil's influence, and Jesus' teachings and actions were to destroy that law. Now, as to whether being gay is a sin or not, there's some controversy but even assuming it is, the part about "being put to death" is the part Jesus changed with his teachings. It's not a contradiction in a bad way, it's supposed to be a contradiction because Jesus' teachings are God's intentions in the first place.

Also, if you're trying to imply that being gay(or just about any other behavior we engage in) isn't just one point on a whole spectrum of sexual orientations that are influenced not only by genetics but on environmental factors, then you're going against everything we know about human behavior and its causes.

I don't think that's what you meant, I just think you misunderstood me.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:52 PM #104
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But where, inside the Bible, are such claims turned around to be something else? I haven't seen anything directly addressing the statements of stoning disobedient children, executing gays, etc. and saying that such statements were wrong.
Feel like this needs to be cleared up:

Romans 7
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:41 PM #105
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Feel like this needs to be cleared up:

Romans 7
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
This, I like to see.

But, I've also seen you still support the idea of gay people being sinners. So, which side are you actually choosing?

I'd bring up the contradictions you just provided of a supposedly "omniscient" God, but that would lead down another path that would take this thread off topic.

If you can follow that statement fully, then how can you oppose the idea of gay marriage and/or equal rights for gays? I've seen your posts about your ideas as far as gay people being sinners go, and you do still believe they are sinners, but at least you're not nearly as extreme as to say they shouldn't be accepted by any community.
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