[hereiskyle]

Originally Posted by Tuff

Here's the kicker - many of you claim you were pro Israel. You're also Pro Obama. Looks like one of those has to give. Which one is it

[dot.nation]

the jedi order crumbled, tells you something about them.

[Overbear]

Originally Posted by tuna

Countries can't go democratic when we support their dictatorships.

Who the **** cares, we make money, and we sell them inferior, old equipment. Whats the problem?

[penguin_style25]

Originally Posted by Overbear

Who the **** cares, we make money, and we sell them inferior, old equipment. Whats the problem?

this.

[corporationpaintball]

Originally Posted by Overbear

Who the **** cares, we make money, and we sell them inferior, old equipment. Whats the problem?

This has got to be one of a few times since starting to post in Politics that I agree with you.

[Overbear]

Originally Posted by corporationpaintball

This has got to be one of a few times since starting to post in Politics that I agree with you.

Exactly, its not like we are selling them current gen stuff here. We are selling them F-15's, a platform made in 1980, and ALL of the A/B revisions were retired in 2006, we don't even use the eagle anymore (we use the super eagle) and even that is about to be retired.

We are dumping 20+ year old airframes, to a country that is friendly to us, making some good money, AND making sure we have a constant point of sale for parts and equipment. Seems like a Win-Win to me.

[corporationpaintball]

Originally Posted by Overbear

Exactly, its not like we are selling them current gen stuff here. We are selling them F-15's, a platform made in 1980, and ALL of the A/B revisions were retired in 2006, we don't even use the eagle anymore (we use the super eagle) and even that is about to be retired.

We are dumping 20+ year old airframes, to a country that is friendly to us, making some good money, AND making sure we have a constant point of sale for parts and equipment. Seems like a Win-Win to me.

Yup, we sure as hell could use the money.

[tuna]

Originally Posted by Overbear

Exactly, its not like we are selling them current gen stuff here. We are selling them F-15's, a platform made in 1980, and ALL of the A/B revisions were retired in 2006, we don't even use the eagle anymore (we use the super eagle) and even that is about to be retired.

We are dumping 20+ year old airframes, to a country that is friendly to us, making some good money, AND making sure we have a constant point of sale for parts and equipment. Seems like a Win-Win to me.

Not a win for the Saudi citizens who would be willing to fight for their own democracy but can't because we provide the king with western miilitary technology. I definitely disagree. If we have to give up a few billion in arms sales (most of the benefits of which are concentrated with a handful of connected people in the shady world of international arms sales) in order to keep our hands clean of the subjugation of millions of people, then I think it's worth it. I don't even believe that our economy would suffer overall. It would definitely improve 'brand america' if we didn't come off as such hypocrites.

[Overbear]

Originally Posted by tuna

Not a win for the Saudi citizens who would be willing to fight for their own democracy but can't because we provide the king with western miilitary technology. I definitely disagree. If we have to give up a few billion in arms sales (most of the benefits of which are concentrated with a handful of connected people in the shady world of international arms sales) in order to keep our hands clean of the subjugation of millions of people, then I think it's worth it. I don't even believe that our economy would suffer overall. It would definitely improve 'brand america' if we didn't come off as such hypocrites.

Oh **** off. Your kind of bleeding heart crap went dead 1000 years ago. Welcome to the modern world, if they want to rise up and fight their king, they can buy from us too. We sell to just about ANYONE, hell they wont openly say it but I know for a fact even in the height of the cold war, quite a number of US made chips were going into russian ICBM's.

Its all just a game, a country we sell to does somthing we don't agree with. Suddenly they find they have no parts or munitions for their equipment. Can't fly what you can't fix or launch from.

As to a threat to us (hint: you think we don't program in override systems into their main system code?)

[tuna]

Originally Posted by Overbear

Oh **** off. Your kind of bleeding heart crap went dead 1000 years ago. Welcome to the modern world, if they want to rise up and fight their king, they can buy from us too. We sell to just about ANYONE, hell they wont openly say it but I know for a fact even in the height of the cold war, quite a number of US made chips were going into russian ICBM's.

Its all just a game, a country we sell to does somthing we don't agree with. Suddenly they find they have no parts or munitions for their equipment. Can't fly what you can't fix or launch from.

As to a threat to us (hint: you think we don't program in override systems into their main system code?)

I'm saying that I believe in promoting freedom and democracy. I don't know when that became "bleeding heart crap". If the recently-liberated French hadn't helped us during our war of independence, then people wouldn't be calling you a ***, because that's what they'd be calling cigarettes.

[Overbear]

Originally Posted by tuna

I'm saying that I believe in promoting freedom and democracy. I don't know when that became "bleeding heart crap". If the recently-liberated French hadn't helped us during our war of independence, then people wouldn't be calling you a ***, because that's what they'd be calling cigarettes.

The french didn't do it for free kid, there was a price attached to their help.

[dot.nation]

Originally Posted by tuna

I'm saying that I believe in promoting freedom and democracy. I don't know when that became "bleeding heart crap". If the recently-liberated French hadn't helped us during our war of independence, then people wouldn't be calling you a ***, because that's what they'd be calling cigarettes.

one day you'll realize that nations don't survive on good hearts.

[eckolwarlock]

This is nothing new. I mean hell we sold Iran F-14's. Then they gave some to the Soviets. This is really nothing new. We sell old crap faster than my Grandma does at yard sales.

[Seahawk6060]

Originally Posted by tuna

I'm saying that I believe in promoting freedom and democracy.

I agree with you that we do need to promote freedom and democracy. The problem is that sometimes stability and order is the next best thing, especially in that part of the world. Imagine if we turned our backs on Saudi Arabia and Kuwait when Saddam went on his rampage. Another point is that I'm not sure the citizens in Saudi Arabia want democracy. The Saudi royal family is more concerned about takeover attempts from Muslim fanatics than pro-democracy revolutionaries.

[custar]

Originally Posted by tuna

Countries can't go democratic when we support their dictatorships.

How many "popular" movements in the Middle East have gone to democracy?

[Rapier7]

Originally Posted by tuna

Not a win for the Saudi citizens who would be willing to fight for their own democracy but can't because we provide the king with western miilitary technology. I definitely disagree. If we have to give up a few billion in arms sales (most of the benefits of which are concentrated with a handful of connected people in the shady world of international arms sales) in order to keep our hands clean of the subjugation of millions of people, then I think it's worth it. I don't even believe that our economy would suffer overall. It would definitely improve 'brand america' if we didn't come off as such hypocrites.

The cost isn't just a few billion dollars worth of arms sales every year. There is a larger, geostrategic consideration.

The Royal Family of Saudi Arabia knows that their hold on power is infinitely harder without the United States. They also control 250 billion barrels worth of easily extractable light sweet crude and are extremely influential in Middle Eastern politics. The ruling class of Saudi Arabia is buying stability. They give us oil, cash and diplomatic ins into the rest of the Arab Middle East while we give them advanced weapons to bolster their regime. It is mutually beneficial to both parties, while the average person gets screwed in the process.

But this is hardly the only autocratic country we deal with. Egypt is another notable example. If you haven't noticed a pattern, both countries are located in an extremely volatile region of high geopolitical importance. Both countries are major players in that region. Both countries are useful to us in making sure that nobody rocks the boat too hard.

In the modern era, US foreign policy has always been more concerned with making sure that the world is stable enough to properly conduct business than spreading democracy. It is simply easy to deal with the current power structure than to upend it for some nebulous, democratic future. Now if the Saudis try to go off script like Hussein, we might deal with them later down the road. But right now, they're proving useful pawns.

[tuna]

Originally Posted by Rapier7

They give us oil, cash and diplomatic ins into the rest of the Arab Middle East while we give them advanced weapons to bolster their regime. It is mutually beneficial to both parties, while the average person gets screwed in the process.

They don't "give" us anything, we pay for that oil. And its not just the average Saudi who gets screwed, its the average American as well. Since we indirectly (or directly, as far as anyone on this forum would know) bolster the Saudis and their OPEC cartel, we allow them to control oil pricing so that it perpetually remains just below the point where it would be worth it to start investing more in domestic and renewable sources of energy. I'm no environmentalist, but I hate that we export tens of billions of dollars to these backworlders every year and make them the wealthiest people on the planet as they manipulate the market to their whims and we do nothing about it. Forget solar panels or other hippie pipe dreams, but we easily could be powering more of our electrical grid with reliable nuclear and we could easily have had a massive oil share mining and refining capacity had 'instability in the middle east' caused us to adjust.

[Rapier7]

Originally Posted by tuna

They don't "give" us anything, we pay for that oil. And its not just the average Saudi who gets screwed, its the average American as well. Since we indirectly (or directly, as far as anyone on this forum would know) bolster the Saudis and their OPEC cartel, we allow them to control oil pricing so that it perpetually remains just below the point where it would be worth it to start investing more in domestic and renewable sources of energy. I'm no environmentalist, but I hate that we export tens of billions of dollars to these backworlders every year and make them the wealthiest people on the planet as they manipulate the market to their whims and we do nothing about it. Forget solar panels or other hippie pipe dreams, but we easily could be powering more of our electrical grid with reliable nuclear and we could easily have had a massive oil share mining and refining capacity had 'instability in the middle east' caused us to adjust.

It is generally understood that the US has quite a bit of say in how the Saudis conduct their operations. Remember, American businesses owned all of Saudi Arabia's oil fields once upon a time. Once we let the Saudis nationalize Aramco, there were quite a few strings attached. Those strings are why the Iranian oil bourse will never take off. It's why Saudi Arabia never started its own bourse and instead takes its cue from Western mercantile exchanges. The effects of American leverage upon Saudi Arabian economic and political affairs is subtle, but potent.

[pbjunkiee]

we have been selling them 15's and 16's for ever.... nothing new

[The Inflicted]

Anyone seen the new F-16 variant General Dynamics, I mean Lockheed wants to sell to India, the Super Viper?
It's a hell of a lot better than ANY of the Falcons we ever had.

[pbjunkiee]

kinda hot imho, the plane, not the selling to india...

is that a Kuwait or Palestinian flag on the tail?