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Old 08-01-2010, 11:15 PM #1
iLovPieNCake
 
 
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The Boltless Gun

I had an idea spring on me one day. Why not make a boltless gun ? Then you would never chop. I thought out the design, put it on paper, and I wanna start building it from Timmy, cocker and Spyder parts.

But a problem arose. How can I prevent air from going into the feedneck ? I could make a feedneck closer that slides on top of the bolt and closes off the feedneck using a Timmy ram. Although the closer would have a very low operating pressure, it could chop. That defeats the purpose of the gun.

Please post some ideas to solve my dilemma.
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:59 AM #2
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it been done before, its called the EPIC from ICE heres a video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...intball&hl=en#
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Old 08-02-2010, 01:59 PM #3
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How did Epic keep air from running up the feedneck ?
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Old 08-02-2010, 02:23 PM #4
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They had a "trap door"
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Old 08-02-2010, 02:30 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLovPieNCake View Post
I had an idea spring on me one day. Why not make a boltless gun ? Then you would never chop. I thought out the design, put it on paper, and I wanna start building it from Timmy, cocker and Spyder parts.

But a problem arose. How can I prevent air from going into the feedneck ? I could make a feedneck closer that slides on top of the bolt and closes off the feedneck using a Timmy ram. Although the closer would have a very low operating pressure, it could chop. That defeats the purpose of the gun.

Please post some ideas to solve my dilemma.
Reference the ICE animation below.

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/epic.gif

Additional animations and information:

http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/animations.html
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:24 PM #6
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Looks like a good idea, I will incorporate this into my design. Does the Epic have detents ?

Last edited by iLovPieNCake : 08-02-2010 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:53 PM #7
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seems the epic can still chop a ball in the feedneck...
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:00 PM #8
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the only way I could think of making a boltless gun is with a revolver concept. The cylinder advances every time a shot is fired and a feedneck feeds the cylinder.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:27 PM #9
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the cylinder could still chop the ball though. its all about an electric hopper and slower rate of fire. with a force feed you are gonna chop wit the door but a revvy you will be fine.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:44 AM #10
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and with a revvy and an open breach you're going to have a ton of blowback up the feedneck
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:59 AM #11
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the cylinder could still chop the ball though. its all about an electric hopper and slower rate of fire. with a force feed you are gonna chop wit the door but a revvy you will be fine.
If you make the portion of the feed tube that feeds into the cylinder have a ramped gap, then there will be no chance of chopping. Hard to describe it without a drawing.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:45 AM #12
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The Airstar Nova was the first truly no bolt marker. It has a reciprocal barrel that opened and closed the breach. The EPIC was the second. Also, Jack Rice of Alien did a similar marker that went nowhere and basically was similar to the EPIC but the door operated slightly different.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:23 AM #13
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The Airstar Nova was the first truly no bolt marker. It has a reciprocal barrel that opened and closed the breach. The EPIC was the second. Also, Jack Rice of Alien did a similar marker that went nowhere and basically was similar to the EPIC but the door operated slightly different.
What about the Splatmaster?

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...latmaster1.gif


Unlike the Alien, the EPIC trap door operated at a low enough force to prevent chopping a ball in half.

With any trap door system though, the door is trying to squeeze between two balls. Unfortunately paint comes in a variety of sizes so the door isn't always going to hit perfectly between. Additionally the leading edge is normally thin to minimize how far the balls get pushed back up the stack. These things combined can potentially cause a small crack on the base of the second ball (in the stack) which leads to a 'barrel failure'.


If you're trying to design a boltless gun don't use a trap door like the ICE or Alien or Nova or Splatmaster.... and good luck.
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:36 PM #14
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This idea will probably never happen...there has to be something reciprocating on a paintball marker, that's just the way it is. Even though that gun doesn't have a bolt, I guarantee you under a high ROF that trap door could still chop or at least pinch a ball...the trap door defeats the purpose of not having a bolt. There HAS to be something to load and reload paint.

If you want to create a chop-proof marker, put eyes on it.

Oh wait, already been done. Chopping problem solved.
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:15 PM #15
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This idea will probably never happen...there has to be something reciprocating on a paintball marker, that's just the way it is. Even though that gun doesn't have a bolt, I guarantee you under a high ROF that trap door could still chop or at least pinch a ball...the trap door defeats the purpose of not having a bolt. There HAS to be something to load and reload paint.

If you want to create a chop-proof marker, put eyes on it.

Oh wait, already been done. Chopping problem solved.
The idea has already happened. The EPIC's door does pinch balls. Its force is low enough that balls do not break when it happens.

Eyes are a great way to prevent chops. As long as you are comfortable with batteries, electronics and slowing your marker down. I am, but some are not.
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:05 PM #16
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Eyes don't prevent chops, just the frequency in which they occur. No eye system is flawless. More importantly because of the varying size of paintballs chopping/clipping/ball stack crushing will still occur.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:30 PM #17
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Eyes don't prevent chops, just the frequency in which they occur. No eye system is flawless. More importantly because of the varying size of paintballs chopping/clipping/ball stack crushing will still occur.
I haven't seen a well designed eye system yet so I'll agree with you, but a well programmed controller with a break beam eye system should reduce the chance of chopping a ball due to it not being chambered by 99.9999%. Really lousy programming is the only problem I have ever ran into. Some do not check for paint covered sensors by verifying there was no ball immediately after firing. Most do not wait for X milliseconds to verify the ball is not bouncing because it's the last in the stack. Stuff like that.

Regarding the chopping/clipping due to paint sizes... Wouldn't you agree it's worse with a trap door system since the door is trying to get between the balls?

Judging from Jack's HSV it appears the loader is more responsible than the marker though.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:40 PM #18
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Eyes don't prevent chops, just the frequency in which they occur. No eye system is flawless. More importantly because of the varying size of paintballs chopping/clipping/ball stack crushing will still occur.
Uh yeah, and that frequency is ridiculously small, virtually 0...I'm more concerned about barrel breaks than chopping/pinching.

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I haven't seen a well designed eye system yet so I'll agree with you, but a well programmed controller with a break beam eye system should reduce the chance of chopping a ball due to it not being chambered by 99.9999%. Really lousy programming is the only problem I have ever ran into. Some do not check for paint covered sensors by verifying there was no ball immediately after firing. Most do not wait for X milliseconds to verify the ball is not bouncing because it's the last in the stack. Stuff like that.

Regarding the chopping/clipping due to paint sizes... Wouldn't you agree it's worse with a trap door system since the door is trying to get between the balls?

Judging from Jack's HSV it appears the loader is more responsible than the marker though.
The trap door might be more effective if a wedge was fabricated on the end of the door. So instead of straight up pinching a ball, maybe it'll help push the ball away. A delrin trap door may even reduce the pressure needed to cycle and further reduce the chance of a chop or pinching open a ball.

Not sure if this would work with a Halo, though, for example. Halos put decent pressure on the stack and this door would have to squeeze through that pressure. Would this be effective with brittle tournament paint?
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:02 PM #19
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Uh yeah, and that frequency is ridiculously small, virtually 0...I'm more concerned about barrel breaks than chopping/pinching.



The trap door might be more effective if a wedge was fabricated on the end of the door. So instead of straight up pinching a ball, maybe it'll help push the ball away. A delrin trap door may even reduce the pressure needed to cycle and further reduce the chance of a chop or pinching open a ball.

Not sure if this would work with a Halo, though, for example. Halos put decent pressure on the stack and this door would have to squeeze through that pressure. Would this be effective with brittle tournament paint?
That door thickness is less than 0.03 inches already so it would be less like making it a wedge and more like making it a blade. Too much pressure on the stack is already the cause of most modern barrel breaks so I'm not sure if trying to force the balls up into the stack is good idea.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:20 PM #20
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I don't discount some stack clipping. It's going to happen, but regarding eye malfunctions they are much more common that people would like to admit. The reason why people don't notice it as much as they would have say seven years or so ago is because of the prevalence of fast loaders. The eye programming is horrendous, but there isn't much one can do in the way of adjustment. Perhaps polling the eyes more regularly and using that as a sensitivity setting much like debounce. Another thing that I think would really help break beam eyes is separating the emitter/receiver and using a fiber channel to create a more directed beam of IR light. This is different than an eye pipe in the idea that eye pipes are meant to "bend" the light and be an easier way to locate the eyes away from the actual breach. I was thinking more along the lines of a using a positive converging lens where the focal point would be close to the receiver. It could be made of plastic and would look similar to a Lite-Brite peg.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:55 PM #21
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Here are some pictures of what I am thinking.

It's going to be chop/problem less but I get bragging rights for having a boltless spimmy.


That's a really rough diagram.
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