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Old 06-25-2010, 08:49 PM #1
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Exclamation the infamous battery dilemma..... part II

for those of you not familiar with part I, look here for the dirt.

just got this neato little battery tester. rather than a relative GOOD or BAD analog it shows the actual voltage numerically. curious to the actual voltage of a kingman battery as opposed to a regular 9v i charged the battery in one of my old spyders. the LED was still red on the charger so it wasn't a complete charge but me tinks it's visually good enough to prove a point.

good quality 9v duracell



kingman 9.6v



scuse the blurry pics. i had to hold the tester on the poles of the battery while snapping the pic with the other hand

it actually discharged a little because the tester runs off the battery being tested and i left it for a couple hours on my kitchen table before taking the pics. initially when taking the battery off the charger, not even a full charge the display was showing over 12 volts.
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File Type: jpg kngmn 9.6v.jpg (98.4 KB, 277 views)
File Type: jpg durcl 9v.jpg (93.4 KB, 277 views)
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:03 PM #2
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Oh wow.... Now what are the chances of people reading this thread before posting a new one?
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:09 PM #3
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I smell a sticky.
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:51 PM #4
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I smell a sticky.
that won't help. i foresee those pics being reposted quite often.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:19 PM #5
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not too many threads are stick worthy. some can make it in the ultimate sticky but not a bonafide stuck on top sticky. this is good but still general info.

yeah, people will still post questions but this type of thread makes it easy to be lazy and just post a link. legally slacking hee hee.

the battery i used is about 5 years old and obviously still kickin bootay.
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Old 06-26-2010, 12:11 AM #6
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Where'd you get the battery tester? Its a cool little device. Recently my 9.6 seems to have died some. I dont think its taking a full charge anymore because when I shoot fast with it it will shoot a few times then give some noid clicks then shoot. I wonder if its been overcharged...

Anyway thanks for the article.
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:15 AM #7
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Thank you so much for posting this 'morte. I'm pretty sure I've been telling people this for years, the 9.6v is more like a 11-12v than a 9v. Nice to see some pics that can back me up now.
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:09 AM #8
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but why do they market it as 9.6? if they market it as 12v then noobs would probably be less likely to try 9v's in the first place and then get confused and ask here.
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:47 AM #9
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Because they can.
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:49 AM #10
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Because they can.
it would make more sense to go the more foolproof route though especially when your product is targeted toward beginners. their tolerance is already that way (loose tolerance = hopefully more capable of working through dirt, etc)
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:12 AM #11
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loose tolerance = very cheap to produce
Fix'd.
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:48 AM #12
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but why do they market it as 9.6? if they market it as 12v then noobs would probably be less likely to try 9v's in the first place and then get confused and ask here.
It's called "nominal" value. Batteries have a peak voltage, a discharged voltage, and then a range in the middle. The proper voltage to charge a 9.6v NiMh battery is really very close to 12v.

As soon as you put any sort of load on the battery, the voltage will come right down to 9.6v.

As a comparison, a car battery is rated for 12v. But when fully charged, you'll see 14.4v across the terminals.

I have an alkeline 9v battery in my gun right now, and it works just fine. Hyperframes and mako frames all used alkelines as well. Provided you weren't doing 12bps all day long, they worked pretty well.

There are other things to understand with batteries other than "just" voltage. The load you place on the battery causes voltage drop, and causes capacity drop! Internal resistance is an evil thing. This is why I ran a 1700mah pack on my spyder when I was using it for tourney duty. I didn't have to recharge the battery at all. For the entire season.

It's not "loose tolerances" or "because they can" It's industry standards for describing cell performance. :-)
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Old 06-27-2010, 02:10 AM #13
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It's not "loose tolerances"
I don't think you read the tolerances comment very carefully.
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Old 06-27-2010, 04:08 AM #14
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I don't think you read the tolerances comment very carefully.
i don't think it matters. i don't understand the rest of his post because i'm not an electrical expert. i'll just take his word for it with some educated faith knowing that my car batt does indeed test around 14 when full and knowing that he's way better than most of us at these things.
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Old 06-27-2010, 04:55 AM #15
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what i don't understand is the 'tourney duty' thing/comment unless you shoot more than a case of paint. i suppose it may be that i have '0' interest that thing but i do bring a case of paint with me to the field and when it runs out, so does my field time. in the 8 or so years of using electro-spyder's i have yet to run short of battery power during the course of the day, ever. in saying that, i don't really understand the need to go beyond a regular 9.6v when doing my thang on the field. besides just testing them, i never use ramping modes and all that either. i use semi only. i still feel that it's a form of plastic talent if you need all that extra help to shoot tons of paint.
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:10 PM #16
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Total shots isn't the problem. It's average load on the battery. The solinoid in a spyder is roughly 1ohm. And draws 6-9amps off the battery depending on dwell, and battery voltage. That's a huge load, and causes seriously memorable voltage drop. This is very bad for a battery.

Sure the 170mah battery will last 2000shots or more, if you take your time. But it won't last 1000 at 20bps. You're vaguely accusing me of using ramping ;-) I never have, and never will.

Admittedly the trigger software, combined with the twitchy as heck is switch on the IS spyder was only vaguely legal, the queue was only 1 shot deep, and there was no ramping. It did however allow me to peg the gun on the rof cap on demand.

During testing, we found that anywhere over 14bps would outrun the battery's ability to keep the voltage anywhere reasonable. NiMh OR Alkeline. I can't remember the exact details anymore as it was a long damned time ago. At 14, voltage drop was severe, and in a short time the battery would fail. I think it was in the 16-18 range where the number of shots before sear failure was in the single digit range.

A little quick math here. lets figure the solenoid actually is only averaging 5 amps draw. And it's seeing 7 volts. That's 35w. The 9.6v battery has 1.6 watt hours to give you.

In your 2000 shots, you've only got the solenoid activated for a grand total of 12 seconds. (Stock spyder boards trip the solenoid for 6ms right?)

That means only 0.12 watt hours of power actually goes to the solenoid during that time. Doesn't sound like much? Because it's not. However that sort of load on a small battery is like asking a geo metro to tow a tractor trailer.

Loads on batteries are usually expressed in factors of "c" 0.1 c is the standard discharge rate for describing battery capacity. That's a 10 hour discharge. Or for a spyder battery, 17ma. The solinoid draws 7000ma. (ohms law says 9600ma, but the voltage drop is severe) Yes, spyders really load their batteries at 400c. Reasonable loading is more like 10c. A 1000ma battery would be just about perfect for the application.

The fact the batteries last at all is pretty remarkable. The load only lasting a few MS is a big factor in that.

The Emag had a huge battery for all these reasons. And because it's solinoid dwell was more like 20ms instead of 6.

Voltage drop is why there's a capacitor on the spyder boards. With a big enough battery, you don't need a cap to trip the sear. Without the cap, the voltage doesn't even stay high enough to survive the first shot!
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Old 06-27-2010, 02:50 PM #17
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with all the speculation and theory, it's almost tough to deliberate the fact that a spyder 9.6v NiMH battery can easily sustain operation throughout a case or more of paint without error but it doesn't negate the fact that it will and has for a greater percentile of users. a regular 9v is not comparable, it's the whole point of posting these threads.

what's more, evidently you're saying you were using an illfated IS board that never quite made the grade when you needed this battery pack which is not a stock spyder board nor have i any means of finding data of its specifications and far as i know, have never been offered freely to the public. for that matter, nor do i have detailed specifications for a stock spyder board.

it's not my intent to confuse members with watt hours, ohms, amps of awe and intricate specifications that they may not understand, but to simply educate them that e-spyder's were not meant to operate under the power of a conventional 9v for the simple reason that the boards and electronic components were specifically designed to run sustained off a different degree of power source. in this case, a battery that starts out at about 3 volts in excess of a conventional 9v after a fresh charge. the visual is concise, easy to understand and straight to the point.
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Old 06-27-2010, 04:03 PM #18
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Now I have a question for Morte & Nero. Would yall believe that I used to run my ESP on nothing but good 'ol copper tops without problems. This was back when the boards were using dip switches to change settings. Never had an issue out of it & it would last several weekends with me shooting a case per weekend.
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:39 PM #19
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yes, i beleive it. i can leave a freshly charged battery in my old spyders and it will stay charged for months and months with no use. the newer ones seem to draw power even if it's just sitting doing nothing. even left for one day makes a noticable difference in voltage. i made a thread about the phenomenon quite a while ago but don't remember if we ever really figured it out.
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Old 06-27-2010, 07:09 PM #20
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with all the speculation and theory, it's almost tough to deliberate the fact that a spyder 9.6v NiMH battery can easily sustain operation throughout a case or more of paint without error but it doesn't negate the fact that it will and has for a greater percentile of users. a regular 9v is not comparable, it's the whole point of posting these threads.
The reason kingman chose to supply a rechargeable 9.6v battery was two fold. First, despite the lower capacity, it has a lower internal resistance, and would see less voltage drop. Second, it provided a safety net in preventing support calls. :-) Kingman chose their F/A rof's based on the batteries that were available. Other frames had higher rof's and didn't come with nimh cells. As I made refrence, they didn't do so well.

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what's more, evidently you're saying you were using an illfated IS board that never quite made the grade when you needed this battery pack which is not a stock spyder board nor have i any means of finding data of its specifications and far as i know, have never been offered freely to the public. for that matter, nor do i have detailed specifications for a stock spyder board.
Never made "what" grade? The specifications were discussed at length in this very forum. And it was available as much as NotEvil could produce them. The reasons behind the board failing were not a quality or even a quantity issue. But that's a long, unrelated, story. I"m one of the two people behind the IS board. I know it well ;-) On technical levels, the IS board drew less power at idle than the stock spyder LED board. And it had a lower resistance mosfet for the solenoid.

For several practices and a tournament I used the stock spyder board with my battery pack, to ensure the gun operated properly. During a tournament, I could shoot anywhere from 1500-4000 rounds. During practice days I did have some trouble with the stock battery keeping up with the stock board. That was one of the things that led to us testing the things that we did. Running a large soloinoid like you find in a spyder from a 170mah pack is pushing the edges of reliabilty. And as you've stated, your testing never goes beyond a case of paint.

Quote:
it's not my intent to confuse members with watt hours, ohms, amps of awe and intricate specifications that they may not understand, but to simply educate them that e-spyder's were not meant to operate under the power of a conventional 9v for the simple reason that the boards and electronic components were specifically designed to run sustained off a different degree of power source. in this case, a battery that starts out at about 3 volts in excess of a conventional 9v after a fresh charge. the visual is concise, easy to understand and straight to the point.
The "3v" excess isn't why the 9.6v batteries work better. Which is the point I was trying to get at. They work better due to lower internal resistance, and a chemistry that allows them to recover voltage faster than an alkaline.

Your "point" is valid. Your reasoning isn't correct. :-) Which I suppose I should have gotten to off the bat.

IIRC spyders run reliably on a large 7.4v LiPo pack too. It's not really a "voltage" thing.

Oh, and if you check my post history.... anytime I've answered "hey my gun won't shoot" one of the first things I ask is "are you running the stock rechargable battery" ;-)
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:37 PM #21
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........ Kingman chose their F/A rof's based on the batteries that were available.........
geeze, and i thought they chose a 12-13pbs max because the main electronic fed hopper used then was the revy that claimed 12bps but in reality did much more like 10bps. was there really any cause to pass the rof that hoppers could feed at that moment on paintball history?

the spyder electro's were being developed pre- & 2001 and were released in 2002. so you were in on this developement and know for a fact it was due to the battery constraints?

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Never made "what" grade?.........
never said it was a bad board. maybe better chosen words, fizzled quick. yes, i was around here when all that was going on(and elsewhere as well) and chose to watch(posting little here) all the drama that was flying around here involving more than just board development. hah, quite the soap opera

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.......... And as you've stated, your testing never goes beyond a case of paint.
never said tested, i did imply experienced. the majority of the community consists of recball players, has always been and i'm pretty sure it will follow through. don't know too many that are willing to throw out 2-3 cases in the name of fame and fortune. i would think most play the game because it's interesting and a fun pastime.

i would speculate that a case of paint or less would be used by a greater part of the majority. hence, who really needs a battery pack when a single 9.6v is a sufficient supply of power?

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The "3v" excess isn't why the 9.6v batteries work better. Which is the point I was trying to get at. They work better due to lower internal resistance, and a chemistry that allows them to recover voltage faster than an alkaline.........
so then um......they should have just gone w/a NiMH 9v and called it a day huh? they work better due to lower internal resistance and posess a chemistry that allows them to recover voltage faster than an alkaline just as the 9.6v. voltage output is completely exempt from the equation?
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