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Old 01-06-2016, 07:41 PM #1
Diomedes
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Experienced Players Should Not be Shooting Electros in Recball.

Dear Experienced Players:

Here are some thoughts Iíve been kicking around for a while, but I just got around to formalizing them a bit in a coherent way. This is related to what happened in my last FPS video, but Iíve been thinking along these lines for years.

Short version:
If you are an experienced player, you should be playing pump in recball. Thatís the simplified, one-sentence version of the argument. Read on for the long version.

If you don't feel like reading, here's the video version.

Goal:
Make recball enjoyable for everyone who participates, regardless of experience level.

Premises:
1. New/young players getting lit up is bad for paintball.

They are less likely to play again, and are more likely to discourage others from playing.

2. Relatively few players can be trusted to not use their equipment to its fullest legal capacity, or nearly so.

Generally, if a players has the ability to shoot 8, 10, 12bps, they will do so at some point on the field, even if they donít intend to. Purposefully limiting yourself is not easy, especially when the paint is flying and adrenaline pumping.

The Argument:
Following the logic of those points, new players getting lit up by experienced players, even if they donít intend to do so, is inevitable. Players that have the ability to shoot a lot of paint will do so, and that paint will at some point find a new player. Consequently, those new players are less likely to play again, and more likely to discourage other people from playing. In the long term, this can lead to significantly fewer people playing paintball.

Itís worth noting at this point that the vast majority of paintball players are relatively inexperienced. They play maybe once or twice a year, and most rent. If they own their own gear at all, they have a Tippmann in a closet. These are the players at risk of being discouraged by experienced players if the experienced players use their equipment to its fullest legal capabilities, as they inevitably do. Since this is the largest group of players, threats to their participation are, not to be dramatic, existential threats to the viability of paintball as a whole.

Conclusion:
Given a certain set of conditions, you should be technologically handicapping yourself when playing recball. Here are those conditions:

1. You are an experienced player. By this I mean youíve been playing for at least a couple of years, you own your own gear, which is significantly ďbetter,Ē for lack of a more precise term, than rental gear, and you have played at the same field a sufficient number of times to be familiar enough with it that you know ďhow to play it,Ē or have an idea of how you like to play it. Basically, if youíre reading this, you are probably sufficiently experienced that it applies to you.

2. You are playing mixed recball. By this I mean it is a walk-on game, and new players and experienced players in the same group. Some fields split up groups, either renters and non-renters, electros and everyone else. If thatís the case, this doesnít apply. But if the field doesnít do that, or there are too few people to have two groups, thatís where this applies.

If you meet both of those criteria, experienced player in a mixed group, you should be playing at some technological disadvantage, or at the very least not have a technological advantage.

In a perfect world, I think this means every experienced player would play pump in mixed walk-on games. But I wonít even go that far. Play pump, pistol, magfed, limited paint, hopperball (it feels great to drop the pod pack), even just throw a gravity hopper on your normal setup, literally anything to technologically limit the amount of paint you can throw. EDIT: Someone pointed out setting a low BPS cap on electros would work, too. Indeed it would.

Before I continue, I want to point out that there are a bunch of situations and groups to which this does not apply: Private groups, scenarios/big games, tournaments/practice/scrimmage/etc, speedball groups (streetball, etc). So if thatís your bag, disregard what Iím saying, doesnít apply to you.

There are other reasons, beyond ďdonít drive the new players awayĒ that experienced players should be doing this anyway. You already know how to move, use cover, snap shoot, aim, you know the fields, etc. You shouldnít also have a technological advantage. But those are besides the point.

Counterarguments:
Some of these I have heard/read frequently, some infrequently, but I have encountered each of these points in some form.

Quote:
I can use whatever I want/I paid for it, I can use it.
Yes you can, just donít be a jerk.

Quote:
Iím practicing for a tournament, so I have to use the same setup/modes/etc.
No youíre not. Go play airball if youíre practicing, theyíre running 5-man games right now. If youíre playing with the mostly-renting rec group, youíre not practicing.

Quote:
As long as itís within the rules, I can play however I want.
Technically yes, but you should not be playing in such a way that is detrimental to the experiences of the other players. To paraphraseÖsomeone (itís unclear exactly who), your right to swing your fist ends where the other guyís nose begins. Do what you want, until it negatively impacts other people.

Something may very well be within the rules, but that doesnít mean it is acceptable in a mixed walk-on game. Shooting an electronic marker at new players at or near the maximum allowed ROF is one of those things. Youíre allowed to do it, but youíre a jerk if you do. So donít do it.

Final Thoughts:
Iím not saying electros should be banned from recball.

Iím calling on experienced players to be considerate of the vast majority of players who play occasionally and either rent or own a simple mech. These players make up the bulk of paintballers, and alienating them is bad for paintball.

The easiest, most reliable way to do that is to use gear that doesnít allow you to play in a abusive way. Yes, you can still ruin someoneís day with a pump, but Iíve never seen it happen. By voluntarily limiting the amount of paint you can sling, youíre making the field a friendlier place, and helping paintball grow.

Thanks for reading this far.
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Old 01-06-2016, 07:58 PM #2
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I mostly agree. I will either play pump or if I'm stepping over from speedball and don't feel like swapping out my whole setup I'll basically shoot with one finger at a mech rate of fire with burst here or there if I'm laying down covering fire. And if I am face up with another experienced player with an electro if it's necessary I'll let loose some and gunfight with him. Unfortunately most will not limit themselves in this way. Not sure how you can enforce telling people what kind of gun to use though. Not everyone can afford two guns and the "I bought a gun that's legal to use at your field and paid for entry, it I should be able to use it" argument has some merit.

I think the best solutions are to foster a positive culture at your field where players police themselves and help along new players and separate players by skill level whenever possible.
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:29 PM #3
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I personally always use my mini and have never had any complaints from anyone for using an electro, well I guess that's not true I did have someone from the opposite team yell "stupid speedballers" when me and a buddy were playing in an organized group play at our local field. The funny thing about that is yes I look the part, but my buddy has an X7 phenom and yes it is electro but so what? We weren't lighting anyone up at the time we were just laying down some cover fire for each other as we moved up. I personally have never used my full auto in a game. If I want to shoot lots I will set it to burst. I can see your point and I do agree that people lighting up newbies is going to be bad for the sport, but I rarely will put more than a couple of balls on a guy. Paint is expensive haha I don't like wasting it.

I understand where you're coming from, but I personally think people can use electros in rec ball and not cause problems. I can't justify buying a pump just to make others happy. I will say my local field isn't a huge speedball crowd and there isn't many times where they have a lot of guys running on the airball field so most people just play recball with whatever they have.
I personally like using electros, even my older 2k2 timmy just because it shoots so nice. I am considering buying a new marker, but it wont be a pump it will be what I want.
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:34 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superzeus View Post
I mostly agree. I will either play pump or if I'm stepping over from speedball and don't feel like swapping out my whole setup I'll basically shoot with one finger at a mech rate of fire with burst here or there if I'm laying down covering fire. And if I am face up with another experienced player with an electro if it's necessary I'll let loose some and gunfight with him. Unfortunately most will not limit themselves in this way. Not sure how you can enforce telling people what kind of gun to use though. Not everyone can afford two guns and the "I bought a gun that's legal to use at your field and paid for entry, it I should be able to use it" argument has some merit.

I think the best solutions are to foster a positive culture at your field where players police themselves and help along new players and separate players by skill level whenever possible.
AGREED

And this is totally how my local field handles things. Believe it or not, it actually works!! And this is a reason the field has grown to be the largest in New England. Like you said, you just have to foster that sort of culture. The ref's at my local field are very proactive in ensuring that the new players are not overshot from experienced players, but one could argue that they aren't experienced players in the first place if they are overshooting a new player.

On a busy weekend my local field supports multiple games playing at the same time, often their will be a group of very new players doing their thing and then the experienced players will automatically group themselves together and play on separate fields in separate games. And if the turnout for the weekend is small and only one game is going at a time the refs will remind the experienced players to keep it toned down. But on those sort of weekends it's mostly regulars that know each other anyways and that sort of behavior isn't tolerated.
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:44 PM #5
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+1
this needed to be said and comes up from time to time. most notably in threads titled "what i hate about paintball" and such.

i'll admit, i kinda fit into the category of player for which this is written. but like many things, there's a great big grey area of player that can afford nice gear but doesn't have the experience to wield it to its full advantage. that's me. let's not equate equipment to ability (altho i know what you're getting at)

and to be fair, there are more than a few players like me (little experience with nice gear) and from our vantage point things aren't always clear. i don't usually know who i'm shooting at. if they're facing my direction, i shoot back. we're usually crouching behind bunkers so it's not obvious if they're a kid or not. even among full grown players, i've no clue who's renting or pumping, i just don't notice their guns. overall, my field awareness is close to zero in mixed walk on environments. there's just too many people. up to 4 on 4, it's much much easier to discern my targets.

but to your point, i use my gun on semi. just doesn't seem fair to ramp on full mechs seeing as how i can outshoot them just on semi anyway. i may play hopper ball if i don't feel at a disadvantage myself.

hand up/gun up/call out/stand up = stop pulling the ******* trigger. easy rule.
i never did understand the overshooting thing.

oh and btw, i regularly get my butt handed to me by pump players and experienced kids. like all the time.

as for the excuses, perhaps not the rules of the game are being violated, but certainly the spirit of it is. i'm 100% with you on that.
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:55 PM #6
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I agree to a point I just got into pump at the end of last year and I tend to use it more if I'm playing rentals and try to only pull out my electro when im facing stiff compition from more experienced players but I always set it to semi if I'm playing recball and try to snap shot in 1-2 shot burst

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Old 01-06-2016, 10:05 PM #7
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agreed
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:17 PM #8
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Great post as always, good sir!
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:20 PM #9
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I disagree and agree. I disagree because yes, they did buy they're own gear so they are entitled to use it. I agree because no one likes guys with electros lighting up a new person which isn't good for the growth of our sport. If I ever play electro during recball(rarely now) I cap my gun at 6 bps semi-auto. Most of the time I play pump. Not because I feel bad about using a electro, but because the challenge playing pump provides. I'm not saying don't ever use your electro during recball, but if you do at least know how to control yourself.
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:21 PM #10
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I have heard this come up too many time since i started playing in 2004 and it's pointless. The problems the players thinking its oksy to over shoot people and play new players because it "easy".

This statement says it so well that i will end it there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superzeus View Post
.

I think the best solutions are to foster a positive culture at your field where players police themselves and help along new players and separate players by skill level whenever possible.
+1
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:37 PM #11
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I agree with you. However I do feel that if you own an electro you should be able to use it whenever you please. If I do play rec with my e-gun I will only shoot 1 finger on the trigger and go easy on the renters. If I encounter a guy with a luxe, well expect a stream of paint. If I see a guy in jeans with a tippmann 98, he will only see a few balls coming his way.

When you boil it down, the player is shooting the gun, and the gun itself is not shooting the players. Doesn't matter what gear you have. Make the right choices on the field.
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:44 PM #12
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Agree totally. One of the fields I go to doesn't really care for this method though. At 60$ for a case of paint that's gi field grade stuff when they see kids come in will fancy new gear they want them to shoot as much as they can and buy more. Most of these kids just play rec and never step up and play with the tourny guys. I mean I can see why cause of some of the horrible attitudes you see as well as you can only play with them if you are in the "click" of players. I don't mind playing pump (the kids aren't douches or anything) with them but it sucks when they sort of know what they are doing and just spray and pray at anything that moves and overshoot the newer players and just keep lanes going when kids are trying to walk out when hit. I haven't played in a while it hopefully things have changed up a bit. Almost all of them shoot semi but their triggers have insane amount of bounce. Not a big deal though, not to me anyways. One shot 3 kills lol. Or if I do play semi I just use my pico loader with my baby pods and one finger shooting. The game is changing not rule wise but the spirit (as ekkthree puts it) is, and not for the better sadly. In my area I haven't seen to many new players that stay in the game too long. Also there is hardly any pump guys in my area. Rant ended, good post though.
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:53 PM #13
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I had a small flash back to my first year of paintball and thinking about how unfair it was to play against autocockers, and early electros. I did hate it, but it made me into a really good player(not trying to toot my own horn). I got over shot countless times, hurt, pissed off; but i never gave up on this game since it was fun. The challenge made me into a better player and I decided that i wouldn't do to new players that was done to me.
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Old 01-06-2016, 11:00 PM #14
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^^^^^^^This is truth^^^^^^ Ahhhhhhh the good old noob days.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:41 AM #15
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I like the spirit of the idea. Certainly, as more experienced players, we should definitely be shooting capped semi. I think that good ref enforcement will also weed out the people with bad attitudes who intentionally overshoot rentals. That is a personal problem more than a equipment one. The self equipped community at the field also should pitch in and self police to some extent.

The reason why it doesn't make sense to restrict self equipped players to mechs and pumps is twofold. First, most people don't have the budget or the inclination to invest in a pump/mech if they're a tournament player. It's not something they expect to use often. Second, maintenance of a mech is probably more complicated than what they're used to. If you force someone to use something that breaks down on them in the middle of the game, they'll probably find another field that will allow them to use the more reliable electronic setups they have. Not to mention that some older guns need higher tank output pressures that can damage the internals of newer guns.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:50 AM #16
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Great post, i agree but if i'm playing rec with my electro i just put it on semi and use one finger unless there's a real reason to throw some short bursts. Anyone that goes and plays rentals just to throw ropes at them is a loser and probably needs to get a job so mommy doesn't have to keep spending money. Grow up and get into the net.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:26 PM #17
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I agree with most of what your saying but I feel like I shouldn't have to change up my gear to appease anyone for recball. I play on semi only except for scenarios when everyone and there mother is ramping. Most of the games I do the same technique as mech guns, one finger on the trigger pulling like I would on my old tippman 98. Most of the time I don't even shoot rentals I play to encourage the others around me to make moves and go get people with cover fire and talking to people and if I do shoot them its usually in the feet or the gun. But I have been on the other end with people over shooting and ramping while playing with my pistols only. Several fields back in Houston had gone to semi only and I agreed with because some of the kids get a gun, and assume going out there ramping is the norm.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:42 PM #18
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One thing that may be lost in all this is that it's not about fairness, it's about enjoyment. Sure, I own electros and I want to use them. But if I'm pinning down some kid behind a barrel so that they're too petrified to shoot or even move, it's scary for them and no fun for me. So playing semi, or hopper ball, or pumping, etc doesn't have to be about self handicapping to make things more equitable. It's simply more fun when everyone's running around and having fun. I don't want to spend my day surrounded by crying kids. Or guys telling their girlfriends "that's the game". A lot of these folks are gone before lunch break and who's left? That's right, the jerks who shot em up and me. No bueno. Kids and newbs discovering the sport is fun.

If you don't have empathy, if you had a bad week, or if you're just a jerk in general, just use common sense.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:44 PM #19
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Guys. "I agree but I'm not going the change the gear I use in recball" = You don't agree. Just own it.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:46 PM #20
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Quote:
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Guys. "I agree but I'm not going the change the gear I use in recball" = You don't agree. Just own it.
Glad i never agreed.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:57 PM #21
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Quote:
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One thing that may be lost in all this is that it's not about fairness, it's about enjoyment. Sure, I own electros and I want to use them. But if I'm pinning down some kid behind a barrel so that they're too petrified to shoot or even move, it's scary for them and no fun for me. So playing semi, or hopper ball, or pumping, etc doesn't have to be about self handicapping to make things more equitable. It's simply more fun when everyone's running around and having fun. I don't want to spend my day surrounded by crying kids. Or guys telling their girlfriends "that's the game". A lot of these folks are gone before lunch break and who's left? That's right, the jerks who shot em up and me. No bueno. Kids and newbs discovering the sport is fun.

If you don't have empathy, if you had a bad week, or if you're just a jerk in general, just use common sense.
You sound too level headed to be here!

Agreed with basically all your posts in this thread.
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