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Old 05-30-2010, 08:31 PM #1
xsvdynastypballa
 
 
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Im going to kill someone! Mystery film strikes again.

Ok, So after my third try and fail at a polished finished I have decided to ask someone what is going on. I first spend a good deal of time polishing my gun body and frame then I brush on some lacquer to get rid of the polishing compound, The I give it a good scrub with a soap and water on a brush. Then I go through the whole process of hanging the part hooking everything up to my power supply. I leave it in there for about an hour (per the tutorial ive been following). The solution gets up into the 80's when i take it out.

When i take the parts they look great until it starts to dry then i see this extremely dull film all across the gun. I realize that anodizing will dull the finish some, but this is going from a perfect gloss to a very dull dust finish. So I go to try to remove it, thinking it was some kind of soft build up. I hit it with a brush. Some if it comes off, but i have no way of getting in the cracks. I dye it and it looks even worse. Even after sealing it still looks bad.
Also it seems to harden over time (if that has anything to do with it).

I'm thinking this is either because I don't have desmut or a cleaner? Or maybe because I'm leaving in the ano bath too long?

Ive done small parts with a polished finish an they turn out great right out of the sealer, but i anodized them for about 20- 30 mins instead of an hour.

I'm sorry for the novel i wrote, im just trying to get all the info out there so you guys don't have to ask so many questions.

I really appreciate any advice that anyone can give me!
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Old 05-30-2010, 09:14 PM #2
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dissolution.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:12 AM #3
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Dissolution is the process by which a solid or liquid forms a homogeneous mixture with a solvent (solution). This can be explained as a breakdown of the crystal lattice into individual ions, atoms or molecules and their transport into the solvent.

This is the def i got from quickipedia. But I don't quite understand it

Both dissolution reactions take place in conventional DC and slow square pulse anodizing, though it is only by the square pulse anodizing the use of both is beneficial. During conventional DC anodizing the chemical dissolution will only be utilized to attack the surface of the formed oxide if the process time is too long, giving a soft outer layer. In slow square pulse anodizing both reactions are used to their best.

^I guess that supports my theory that I left it in there to long?


Its amazing what one can do with one word. Thank you sir!

What i didn't understand is that I was having trouble with a layer growing not being dissolved. And the way I understand it is, dissolution is the breaking down of the oxide layer.? Please correct me if im wrong i would like to learn as much as possible.

Thanks again!
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:43 AM #4
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I also have my cathode directly under the part. Its a fairly wide sheet of aluminum. Could this be forming hydronium? I read that when hydronium ions are injected into the oxide layer it dramatically increases the dissolution rate of the oxide layer?

The higher the dissolution rate the softer the oxide layer and the lower the dissolution rate the harder the oxide layer?


Am I understanding this correctly?
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:54 AM #5
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Yes. The length of the process will vary depending on many variables. What I was thinking, especially in your case, is the solution temperature is much too high.
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:44 AM #6
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Don't let the acid bath get above 70F.
Anodize at 6 amps per sq. ft. for 2 hours to get 1 mil.
Anodize to 1 mil for dark colors, .75 mil for medium colors, and .5 mil for clear, gold, copper.
At 6 amps per sq. ft., you should be in the 15 volts range. If not, your acid bath may be too stronge (volts low) or too week (volts high). If your acid bath is too strong, you can get desolution just from that.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:10 PM #7
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this is some good info, I had a little bit of film on a small piece I did in black but I used a polishing wheel to remove it and it shined up nicely
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Old 05-31-2010, 05:12 PM #8
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ooooohh! ok thanks!

how do i measure amps per square foot? I've always known this was an issue, but couldn't find a way to measure it. Ive tried using my dads amp meter, but its complete trash. (its for high voltage lines)

also the voltage meter and amp meter on my power supply are not functioning correctly.

I live in Texas and its pretty tough to keep it at 70 degrees.(I wish could do it in my house, but sadly I would be murdered soon after.)

Ive heard of flash anodizing, were one runs up to 30amps and it only takes 30 min? Could I do that? because I can cool the bath with some Ice jugs and keep it there for 30 min.

Thanks again!
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Old 05-31-2010, 08:37 PM #9
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Are you running any type of circulation, either air or electrolyte re-circulating. If not then the temp at the parts is going to be even higher than the 80 degrees of the bath and is way way to high.
Dry ice works well to bring the temp down, but I wouldn't recommend anodizing with the dry ice in the bath, wait until it all goes away.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:58 AM #10
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Whats electrolyte recirculation? And no I'm not running any kind or circulation. Do i need to be? Because I could stick an air hose at the bottom of my tank and try that out?

What exactly is the circulation going to do? Oh and are you sure that dry ice will not contaminate the bath?

Thanks, Janke
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:21 PM #11
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If you want something cheap for circulation you can get fish tank air pump. In my setup the pump has 2 outputs and in line with the hoses the pump came with a air regulator which is just a simple plastic box with thumb screws on it to control how much air is allowed through. This works so you can control how big the bubbles are etc.
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:39 PM #12
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The recirculation ensures the temperature is uniform in the tank. I would stay away from air circulation if possible. If a bubble gets stuck on a part, that area will not anodize. The dry ice will not contaminate the electrolyte. If you are worried about it, you can fill a plastic jug with water and freeze it. Then when you need to cool your tanks, just place the frozen container in the electrolyte. It works well and is fast.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:57 PM #13
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Ok just rigged up an air system, but now im worried about air bubbles. Is there another way?
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:39 PM #14
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electrolyte re-circulation would involve buying a pump that can handle acid and putting together some PVC piping so it will pull electrolyte from one part of your tank and pump it back in other parts, which means the electrolyte is in constant motion and is constantly "stirring". Keeps the temp consistent throughout the bath.

Dry Ice will not contaminate the bath. Dye ice is the solid form of CO2 so when it hits the electrolyte it turns from a very cold solid directly into a gas, so it won't contaminate or dilute your electrolyte. Ice in a milk jug or something else would work too. There is just no clean-up with dry ice.
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Old 06-02-2010, 03:03 PM #15
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^^However, the dry ice is not found everywhere, and its not reusable.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:38 PM #16
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I like the dry ice idea and I might use it on those especially hot days, but Ive been using ice jugs for a while now and those are for free!

So what kind of bubbles am I going to be looking out for? Are the small ones more likely to stick or are the big ones more likely to stick? Because right now i'm making pretty big ones with a compressor running though a reg which I have set to about 10-15 psi.

Also, Im building a new tank. Should I put dual "bubble pipes" (for lack of better words) in the center or on the sides? I'm thinking the sides and just have the air ride the walls of the tank, but i'm afraid that it will not circulate properly. Any ideas?

Again, thanks for all the help everyone. Its been great learning from you!
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:17 PM #17
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You would want something in the center.

Here is a picture of our chemical pump:


And here is a picture of the plumbing circulating the electrolyte. It looks much more violent in the photos than it actually is. All you need really is a gentle constant "churning" of the electrolyte.


Here you can see the centralized output on the bottom of the tank, and off to the side is the return (the vertical pipe).
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:31 PM #18
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So your saying that pumping air up the sides wouldn't circulate huh.

Those are some great pics man. How much was that pump? And were can I get one? Can I use a pool pump?
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:50 PM #19
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I have heard about air bubbles getting trapped but we have 2 small hoses that put the air into the tank so between the hoses and flow valves we control the air decently and parts seem to have come out just fine.
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Old 06-07-2010, 05:17 PM #20
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http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...t=IMG_0689.jpg

Well the body turned out well


Buuuut the frame is another story

http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...t=IMG_0693.jpg

It seems something leaked out from my hanging wire. It could of been some oil or maybe some lye, who knows I do all my work in the shop and its pretty dirty : (

I think im going to just strip it and do it black to match the reg and eye cover.


Just thought you guys would like to see the results of your help. OH! and I rigged up a cheep multi meter for my amp meter and its working great. Now I can run those amp speck that acid gave me! Thanks man

And LTHG, were did you get your pump and how much did it cost? I really need one, Im already having trouble with bubbles. You cant see it but the body has a bubble mark inside of the feed-neck.


Thanks again for all your help guys!
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Last edited by xsvdynastypballa : 06-07-2010 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:43 PM #21
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Ooh... looks like some contaminant was trapped at that hole. Be sure to rinse well between processes including squirting RO water into all the holes.

A Little Giant pump with a HC (high corrosive) or MC (mild Corrosive) prefix in the model number is what you want. You can find them on Ebay in the $50-$100 range.
Here is an example: http://cgi.ebay.com/Little-Giant-3-M...item19bcd8583d

BTW, when you post your pics, choose the IMG URL from the list, and copy and paste that, and the pics will show up in the post.
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