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Old 04-27-2010, 12:03 PM #1
BtBrawler
 
 
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Apex barrels

SO I have a TM15. I wanna put an apex on it. I have the piece but the adaptor is a JJ and it doesn't fit. It has to be the barrel that's on there. What should I do?
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:48 PM #2
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Originally Posted by BtBrawler View Post
......It has to be the barrel that's on there. What should I do?
no it doesn't. get a different barrel.

evidently you omitted to measure the end of the barrel before you bought the adapter. it fits any 3/4" o/d barrel.
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:02 PM #3
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No, I can't get a different barrel cuz the barrel makes the gun. It's designed to work with the hand gaurd so as to make it quiter, and anything else that would do the same thing is to long. I didn't measure it because I didn't think it would matter being that i'm used to just buying a gun or barrel with the apex already on it. So YOU didn't read my post properly because I said it has to fit that barrel.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:55 AM #4
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have you tried the electrical tape mod to fit the apex on?
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:10 PM #5
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I honestly would recommend against using an Apex at all. Here's why:

Most people use Apex barrels to increase the distance on their shots. They work by putting a backspin on the ball, which redirects the airflow around the ball. So, basically, it transfers the energy from forward velocity to upward velocity, so the ball floats. Net result is that the ball loses velocity faster. So, your shots, physically, will travel farther, but the range they'll break at will actually be reduced.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:00 PM #6
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Originally Posted by Mephysteaux View Post
I honestly would recommend against using an Apex at all. Here's why:

Most people use Apex barrels to increase the distance on their shots. They work by putting a backspin on the ball, which redirects the airflow around the ball. So, basically, it transfers the energy from forward velocity to upward velocity, so the ball floats. Net result is that the ball loses velocity faster. So, your shots, physically, will travel farther, but the range they'll break at will actually be reduced.
sounds good but, wouldn't the fact that the ball is spinning increase the the event of breakage? if the ball lost velocity faster, it would travel less distance would it not? think of it in terms of per se using a reball; you shoot the reball through a regular barrel at a surface and the force behind the ball determines the rebound. you shoot the reball through an apex barrel at a surface and the spinning motion would actually increase the rebound due to the added energy of the spinning motion would it not? so you have 2 forces of energy as opposed to 1. theoretically speaking that is.
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:51 PM #7
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PMED - Use the flasc paintball SQB designed for the TM15 with the apex adapter.
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:26 PM #8
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1. I've used the apex for 2 or 3 years now and i absolutely love it. What you are saying makes no relevant sense to what I posted. I don't care about your opinion, i'm looking for ways to make it work.
2. The duck tape thing doesn't work because the adaptor I have for it is the same size of the barrel. SO I need a larger adaptor if anything.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:29 PM #9
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If you want to use an apex, that's your decision. I just wanted to give you some information to help you decide if it was worth your time and energy to try to make it work.

For me, personally, between having the reason why Apex barrels are counterproductive explained to me by a person with a physics degree from a reputable engineering school, and the fact that I will rarely come across a serious player who uses one, that's why I choose not to use one, and recommend that others don't either.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:03 AM #10
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the apex does alot more than increase range, it all depends on your creativity and proficiency in using it. The apex requires alot of practice to use effectively and fluidly on the field. That's where alot of players screw up. to maximize its advantages you have to practice using them.

For instance, you can get the curve and drop shots. They can help alot when someone is playing a corner real tight. The shot will curve right in. Is it a precise science? lol, no. it'll take a few shots, but you can get him. Same thing for drop shots on pipes/small brush/snake-like bunkers. you can drop the shots right in on them.

One of the biggest advantages the apex gives us woodsballers is in the woods under a low canopy. By flattening the trajectory you don't have to arc the shot as much, and we've all had those 50-75ft shots we just couldn't make because the arc we'd have to shoot puts the balls right in to the low hanging canopy.

Of course there's the longer shots as well. Yeah, the shots slow alot at those distances, but I've gotten/seen people get kills with shots from an apex WAY out of range of a traditional barrel.

All this is from experience first hand. Some laws of physics support it, others don't. I trust what I see.

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Old 05-31-2010, 12:55 PM #11
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mephysteaux, you are incorrect about the physics.

first of all, the apex does not redirect air anywhere. the fin puts backspin on the ball. second, tippmann has actually done studies to show that the flatline effect (backspin) actually increases the velocity of the ball after a certain distance (25 yards or so). hence why there is no drop in firing arc. the ball hits with the same force as a normal ball at greater range. the only time it loses velocity is as excessive range. any paintball marker loses effectiveness the further you try to hit a soft target (meaning person), but the flatline and apex have had physical scientific studies and chronographic studies that show they are just as effective at longer ranges as a normal barrel is at medium range. the optical illusion of slowness comes from the fact that the ball following a flat trajectory makes it easier for the eyes to track its motion. it isnt actually going slower or floating, it's just doing it at an angle that lets your eyes see it more clearly. after all, if you shoot the ball at a bunker, it still has enough force to break doesnt it?

my personal preference is apex over flatline for the simple fact that i can unscrew the apex and clean it out in a matter of seconds, compared to a flatline. also, you can turn the backspin off manually if paint is giving you trouble. the side curves from the apex can be achieved by a flatline on its side, but still, i prefer apex.
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Old 06-01-2010, 04:45 PM #12
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I guess you misunderstood that a bit. It is the fin that spins the ball, but the way the ball spins redirects the airflow around it, kind of similar to the way the wing of plan redirects airflow around it to create lift. It's a simple energy transfer, the upward energy needs to come from somewhere, taking it from the forward velocity is how it happens. If you've ever had one of those inflatable rubber balls from the super market and tried throwing that with a backspin, you'll see the same thing happen. It floats, but then will come to pretty much a dead stop in mid air since it lost all its forward momentum.

In any case, Tippmann is definitely the last source I would trust on this matter, since they have a reason to fudge the numbers or present things under very specific conditions to make their product look better.
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:39 PM #13
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Plain barrel v.s. modified (backspin) barrel.

This seems like a pretty easy case to prove or disprove. Someone with both barrels and a chrono can bench test the two barrels and record the velocities. Actaully two chronos would be better, one at the muzzle, one at 30 feet (for example). Check the data. This is the first part of the experiment, which would show velocity changes over distance. If velocities are similar, then the drag coefficients are similar, therefore the kinetic energy due to ballistic velocity will be similar, so break percentage SHOULD be similar. I have no idea how much rotational velocity is imparted, so that is a bit harder to comment on from my extreme novice perspective. I do have full confidence in my ability to construct a valid experiment or series of experiments isolating the stated variables, namely velocity drop, velocity at range, accuracy, and break percentage (implied).

I do not have any of the required equipment or I would volunteer to perform the test. My shop has a clear lane close to 100 feet long, so a little cardboard to contain the splatter and I'd be in business. I think I might talk with the folks at Northside to see if they would have any interest in loaning the hardware for the test.

A simple break test could be performed also, use a shirt sleeve or pants leg stuffed fairly firmly with other clothes or similar to create a firmness similar to a players extremity. Chrono both barrel setups to nominally the same velocity. Place target at 75 feet to start and check both. If one consistently breaks and the other does not, you could end the experiment there. If no conclusive results, adjust the target distance closer or further (based on previous results) and perform experiment again. A reasonable test basis would be something like 50 or 100 shots per barrel, anything less than 20 shots is marginal unless there is a HUGE difference in results, ie: 18 of 20 shots from one barrel break but only 3 of 20 from the other. The conclusion from such a small data set could only be described as "barrel Y yielded somewhat better results than barrel Z". Shoot a thousand rounds each and you have something more substantial to make statements like "Barrel Y yielded a 74% break percentage and Barrel Z yielded a 27% break percentage at XX feet, YYY fps chrono, target description etc."

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Old 06-06-2010, 02:10 PM #14
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I've only used a flatline or apex a few times on a friends gun. I noticed the shots do seem to go a bit farther, and from the shooting end, they seem to go about the same speed.

However, I have been shot AT by a flatline or apex many, many times, and from that end, I would have to say they are definitely moving much slower. I have literally snatched paintballs out of the air that were shot at me from an apex. They were moving about the speed you could throw one. Now this was at a pretty long distance. I would say at least 120, probably more. So any ball at that distance would be going slow. I would still have to say they go farther, but slow down faster. Either way, if you want to put one on your barrel, and the adapter is too small to fit on the end of the barrel, it sounds like you are outta luck. You would have to get a smaller diameter barrel I'm guessing.
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Old 06-06-2010, 03:02 PM #15
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Its simple physics.. since there is no force acting on the ball to propel it, the ball will not be going faster. The flatline/apex causes the ball to spin and a low pressure effect on the ball reducing creating lift and less drag.. this means the ball trajectory is flatter and further. however since there is nothing acting on the ball once it leaves the barrel to propel it the ball will continue to slow down and loses energy. This means less breaks at the further range
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:05 PM #16
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Maybe I miss-read something, but I thought that the purpose of the Apex was to improve accuracy and range. One person asserts that the Apex reduces velocity faster, ie. higher drag coefficient, the ball will have a slower velocity at a given range compared to a conventional straight tube and equal initial velocity. Lower velocity means (other things being equal) less likely to break. There will be a threshold below which the ball is not going to break (statistically).
In either tube, the ball will reach that threshold at some point if it does not hit something, the question is at what range.
Does the Apex permit the paint ball to maintain its velocity above that threshold for a longer range?

One person commented on the back spin possibly improving the odds of a break, in the implied case of a near or below threshold velocity. In concept, that is a valid question, a rotating mass will have a centripetal/centrifugal force vector, and if sufficiently close to the tensile limits of the paint ball shell, it would in effect make the ball more "fragile" on impact, thus lowering the velocity threshold.

However, there are only two logical methods to determine or predict the rotational elements effects on the velocity threshold. Either by experiment, or predictive analysis.

To predict or model the problem mathematically requires knowing the tensile strength or rupture modulus of the paint ball shell, the the rotational speed which will provide the internal pressure, the impact force, which would have to be standardized for comparison, and a knowledge of fluid dynamics I do not possess. It would not be too hard to make a few educated guesses if you know how fast the ball spins and the strength of the shell though. I would venture to say that the spin imparted on the ball has almost no measurable difference in performance (regarding breaking). The rotational speed to build up enough internal pressure would have to be quite fast, and that rotational speed would have to be imparted into a FLUID FILLED ball in an incredible short period of time, meaning the angular acceleration to reach a near bursting rotational rate would probably bust the ball in the barrel anyway. Again, that is just my opinion based on very little hard data.

I posted one method of experimentally determining the effectiveness a couple posts before this one.

I am not certain, but I believe that Dager is asserting that the Apex style barrel will result in a shorter effective range (range at which the ball will break).

I am not sure I aggree with the argument as presented though. Yes the ball has spin, and yes, as my aircraft designing buddies tell me, if you create aerodynamic lift, you also create aerodynamic drag, more lift, more drag. They also go on about turbulent verses laminar flow, drag buckets and host of aerodynamic speak that is beyond my present knowledge base. So, it is plausible that by imparting a lift force by spinning the ball, that the drag is increased. It is also plausible that by imparting a spin, and creating a lift force, that there is a net reduction in drag, which is why I suggested the simple, but decisive side by side comparison. Without spending many hours researching the ballistic aerodynamics I am not able to support either argument, and it just isn't worth the effort compared to a simply unchallengeable hard data proof by experiment.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:34 PM #17
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all scientific crap aside, the electrical tape mod is what you are after. this can be done in 1 of 2 ways:

using the barrel the you "have" to use, remove the J&J adapter from the apex, and wrap the tip of the barrel accordingly to accept the apex tip directly. Take your time, it will show in the finished result.

for a different apex ready barrel, or what ever: use a grease pencil and mark the point where the shroud needs to make contact with the barrel. remove the barrel, wrap the appropriate location with the electrical tape, and replace the barrel.

i liked my J&J adapter, but it is easy to strip the grub screw holes out.

i have discovered that the most practical application of a apex is fire support. AND, even if it doesn't break on a soft target at range, rarely does paint bounce off of hard targets- mask, guns, hoppers, pod packs, etc.

EDIT: just keepin it on topic, i'm not hating on proper scientific methods
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:05 PM #18
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:43 AM #19
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Routerman does seem to have a pretty firm grasp on how the Apex should affect the ball in theory, and with my knowledge of physics as I understand it, I'm inclined to agree. I know there are still a lot of variables out there that could push it one way or another. It could definitely vary based on what kind of paint you're using, etc.

One day, if I get the opportunity, I am going to try to test it scientifically. Here's basically what I have in mind:

Targets: I'll have a hard target, probably plywood. This would represent a hit to the marker or mask. Also, a soft target, maybe a piece of meat with a piece of clothing on it, representing a hit to the body.

Ranges: I'd do this at at least 3 different ranges. What exactly they would be I'm not sure, but maybe 50 ft, 75 ft and 100 ft. I'd skip the closer range ones because I don't think that in that short distance either barrel will affect the velocity enough to cause a significant difference in breakage.

Paints: I'd try to test at least 3-5 different brands of paint, ranging from Walmart to some high quality stuff.

Method: With each paint at each target at each range, take some predetermined number of shots, recording the velocity of each one. Record whether each shot bounced or broke. To ensure as little experimental error as possible, each test would be done with the same marker, using the same barrel (with and without Apex tip), try to do it at about the same time of the same day to ensure the temperature and humidity are constant
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Old 06-14-2010, 02:56 PM #20
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Mephysteaux illustrates some good practices in creating an experiment. One needs to define what you will test, how you will test, and under what conditions. Observations need to be recorded, ie: the test result data, after all, what good is the test if you fail to record the results. It seems to me that to generate a good working hypothesis, one needs to start with general statement that defines what you wish to determine is a way that can be proven or disproven. The typical steps in the “Scientific method” go something like this:

1.) The scientific method starts with a question. The question is typically about something you observe, such as the apparently slow velocity of paint balls fired through an apex barrel at range. Formulate a question that can be tested. Does an apex barrel improve accuracy over a plain barrel? Does an apex barrel improve the effective range of a paint ball? Does an apex barrel improve the odds of a break at a given range?

2.) Create a Hypothesis. A hypothesis is an educated guess at the answer to the question you just asked. It is important to construct the hypothesis in a way that lends itself to verification and measurement. Obviously, the hypothesis is part of an effort to answer the original question, so it should be constructed to answer the original question.

4.) Test the Hypothesis. Construct an experiment that tests the hypothesis. The experiment or test needs to be constructed in such a way as to be able to prove or disprove the hypothesis. To be valid, the experiment must test only the condition or conditions of the hypothesis and you have to make every effort to hold all other conditions constant. It is wise to record the test conditions, place, time, etc, and especially all relevant conditions that can influence your test. For instance, if you are testing the hypothesis that you are able to psychically affect a magnetic compass but fail to consider that you are conducting the experiment next to a MRI machine, the apparent results could appear to support the hypothesis, when in fact the proximity of the MRI machine's huge electromagnetic field is doing all the work.

5.) Review and analyze your experiment's results and data, then formulate a Conclusion. Once the test or experiment is defined, constructed, and performed, you look at the results and draw a conclusion; does the data support a decisive conclusion? If so, does it support or refute the hypothesis. Bear in mind that even when an experiment proves the hypothesis wrong, that does not mean the experiment failed. If the experiment does NOT decisively answer the hypothesis then the hypothesis was poorly defined to begin with. Sometimes, the hypothesis can be reconsidered in light of the experimental data, but it is rather a moot point anyway, either the data answers the question or it does not. Still, the data can often provide considerable insight into related topics. That is part of why it is important to record the method of recording the data and the test conditions as well as the test data itself. Usually, if the data does not answer the question, or refutes the hypothesis, you start over with a refined question and hypothesis, construct the test, conduct the experiment, review the data etc.
-----------

In our discussion, several questions have been posed with respect to the operating characteristics of the apex barrel.

1.) Does the apex barrel improve range? More importantly, does it improve EFFECTIVE range? The EFFECTIVE range has three components, A.) Max distance the ball will travel. B.) The ability to hit the target or the ability to reasonably expect to hit the target at a given distance. C.) The likelihood of a break at an "extended" range.

2.) Does the apex barrel improve accuracy? In pure terms this can be at any desired range, though of course, if you only test at one specific range, the data is only valid for that range. In practical terms, the ranges selected should be relevant to the application. So, given that my experience level in Paint ball is strictly at the novice level at this time, I defer to Mephysteaux and other experienced players in choices of range. As the underlying premise is that the apex barrel is supposed to extend the effective range, it makes sense to include ranges that are at and exceed the practical limits of a plain barrel.

3.) Does the apex barrel cause increased drag? This one is probably the easiest to test with definitive results. All that is needed here are one or more chronographs, preferably not less than two. It can be inferred by a combination of two experimental results that test the range question, namely overall range and effective range, if both are inferior to a plain barrel, then one could infer that there is some force that slows the ball down more than a plain barrel. However, without actually choreographing the apex, it is JUST an inference, not a proof.
---------------
So, as Mephysteaux has described, a series of specified distances, suitable data size (number of paint balls per set), and same or similar MET condition, gun vise or other suitable fixturing, a chrono or two and we have the makings of a respectable, perhaps even authoritative white paper.
Hopefully the field owners at Northside Sports Paintball in Ramsey MN will get around to reading this a let me know if they wish to participate in answering these questions. So far, no response.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:24 AM #21
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I now have a Chrony beta master to measure PB velocities, but only one unit.

Need to source barrels and marker, and it would be nice to get another chrony. Makes it easier to run Cd calcs with, or just to be able to have muzzle velocity plus range velocity on every shot.

Two chronys also reduce one variant, and the amount of paint required to establish a decent base line as then I could record TWO data points for every shot fired.
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