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Old 04-20-2010, 02:10 AM #1
paintballenthusiast
 
 
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quick question

Shouldn't you guys be putting orange tips on your replica markers, like airsoft guns? What are the laws regarding replica markers? What's to stop some desperate psycho from running into a convenience store with one of these things? Do you feel any obligation to the general public? There are too many youtube videos of people running around "killing people" with MilSim markers. To what extent is this the manufacturer's concern? I suppose that controversy sells, but doesn't it worry you about the tarnished image of the sport?
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:56 AM #2
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dont ruin it.
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:47 AM #3
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What about the videos of speedballers capping each other in the back of the head point blank and getting into fistfights? You think that looks any better to the general public than a bunch of guys "playing Army"?

As for orange tips- what's to stop someone from painting the tip of a REAL gun orange? The whole idea of painting toy guns different colors to prevent confusion with real ones is idiotic. Paint works on real guns too.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:20 AM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballenthusiast View Post
Shouldn't you guys be putting orange tips on your replica markers, like airsoft guns? What are the laws regarding replica markers? What's to stop some desperate psycho from running into a convenience store with one of these things? Do you feel any obligation to the general public? There are too many youtube videos of people running around "killing people" with MilSim markers. To what extent is this the manufacturer's concern? I suppose that controversy sells, but doesn't it worry you about the tarnished image of the sport?
Troll much?

Wow, I haven't heard bs like this for a couple of years now. This whole "milsim hurts paintball's image" crap. You do realize that paintball is a simulated gun-fight right?

I think we should all use markers shaped like flowers, that way our mothers will like the sport better.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:34 AM #5
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I'm not exactly sure what trolling is and I'm not trying to ruin anything. I'm just curious about why airsoft guns have these rules and paintball does not. I took a friend to a local shop to stir up some interest in the sport and he asked the question. I had no answer for him. They had paintball guns next to airsoft guns and the only way to tell them apart now is the little orange tips.

I understand the defensiveness on behalf of your preference and I admit that it's not my cup of tea, but I love paintball and whenever I have a question I go to the community. It seemed like the best thing to do would be to directly ask the manufacturer.

And, yeah, I've been playing long enough to remember the "paintball image" battles of back in the day. I don't want to see it happen again. It's just hard to shake that image when introducing friends.

Last edited by paintballenthusiast : 04-20-2010 at 11:34 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:12 PM #6
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As for the "simulated gun fight" comment. Yes, I know where the game got its start. It's a game of tactics and skill that began with little more than the misuse of farming and contracting equipment. But look to a sport that has been around for centuries: fencing. This is just as much of a combat sim as paintball, albeit far more up-close and personal. But these guys retain a sense of honor and respect for what they're doing. If you look at the videos you'll see that they're full of traditions such as saluting and shaking hands. Fencing started as a combat sport but has successfully distanced itself from the stigma of combat. You don't see those guys dressing up in full regalia and swinging claymores or battle axes. Look at it now. Fencing is legit. It's recognized on the world's stage as an olympic sport. Paintball in the olympics is just a pipe dream, I admit, but there is a certain stigma surrounding the image of guys running around the woods shooting at each other.

What fencing has that paintball lacks is parental support. The olympics is a long-shot, but I don't see any reason why paintball couldn't have the same after school programs. What better way to get kids off of the consoles and outside of the house than to provide them with an alternative? You have to motivate kids and fool them into exercise, paintball, like fencing, has that capability but it must present a friendly image to parents. THAT is the dream.

and @ RogueShooter:
Yes one could just as easily paint a real gun as they could remove the orange tip. It is the gift of free will combined with our opposable thumbs and the use of tools that enables us to modify our markers and weapons to our hearts' content. But as a liability concern, from a manufacturer's standpoint, doesn't it make sense to say that you're not putting full-scale replicas into the hands of the consumer? I don't know where the practice of using orange tips got its start, but I assume that there is some legal issue involved. This brings me back to my original question and the whole reason I started this thread: Why no orange tips? What makes paintball markers so different? Is there any legal obligation?

Last edited by paintballenthusiast : 04-20-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:51 PM #7
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Originally Posted by robertseakykr View Post
Troll much?

Wow, I haven't heard bs like this for a couple of years now. This whole "milsim hurts paintball's image" crap. You do realize that paintball is a simulated gun-fight right?

I think we should all use markers shaped like flowers, that way our mothers will like the sport better.
My concern for the image of the sport directly stems from my advocacy for the sport to the general population. I run into this problem all the time when trying to organize events for school, church, or social clubs. The future of the sport depends on bringing in new players, and to an extent that depends on pleasing Mom. In my opinion, it's too easy to find disparaging videos of people taking milsim too far. You get the same trouble with overzealous speedball players, but it's much easier to explain one or two bad apples in a bright, colorful user-friendly iteration of the sport. It's hard to say that the "headshot" crowd is a minority when the sport has shifted focus toward realism. It's hard to offer paintball to parents as an active and healthy alternative to, say, Modern Warfare 2 if that's the image we're presenting. My concern for image has nothing to do with how the game is played, and, yes, I do admit that it affects my personal image to be associated with the nuts out there. When presented with paintball as a legitimate activity for their children, parents run to the internet or to stores to research the hobby. This is where the image of the sport comes into play, and this is where they're presented with full-size replicas of automatic weapons.
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:52 PM #8
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Actually you DO see people dressing up in armor and swinging claymore and battle axes. There are events for this every year. Fencing is portion of sabre fighting which is a small portion of swordplay which is a small portion of medieval weapon practices which is a small part of simulated warfare as a whole. Also, just because people shake hands before a match doesnt make them honorable. There's dirty hits in fencing, there's wiping in paintball. The fact is how many fencing places will let you take 20 kids, rent some swords and go at it? none. It takes skill and discipline to break into the sport of fencing, it takes 40 bucks and some friends to get on a paintball field. When you compare professional sports to recreational activies, you're not going to see the same level of courtesy but, you will undoubtedly see the same level of dishonor from a select few individuals in ANY sport wether it be recreation or professional. So, to say paintballers don't have any honor or respect for what we do just because we dress up in camo and simulate war is ridiculous and insulting. Fencing is NOT distanced from combat, it simulates an antiquated combat. In all regards it's the sabre fighting equivelant of paintball on a more refined scale. Honor and dishonor are in men, men fence, men play paintball.

as for orange tips, if you consider that to make a paintball gun funtional it needs a tank and a hopper that should be enough to show you the marker isn't real.
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:03 PM #9
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I agree that dishonor is an aspect of human nature. I'm an avid sabre fencer and paintball enthusiast. There are public venues for both sports (and fencing is a much cheaper alternative). Fencing, like paintball, is a discipline that can be picked up easily but difficult to master. It IS a sport in which people can just walk on and pay $20 to give it a shot (that is a fact). Then it becomes a discipline with practice and training. It's got parental support because it's looked at as a legitimate sport. It's got the image that paintball needs and it is very much distanced from combat, antiquated or otherwise. Both hobbies are recreational activities with a professional element.

I never claimed that there's no honor in camo and MILSIM. I take pride in my participation in the sport and respect that my friends have different personal tastes than mine. But it's much easier for the crazies to make offensive videos when they can just buy what is essentially an M-16, right?

The concern for orange tips began as an honest curiosity and I don't want it to turn into a flame war. Yes a tank and hopper are required for the *intended* use of the marker. But for a quick and dirty replica, look at the new omega (and watch Snatch). My concern isn't for the use of these things as paintball markers. I'm just curious. As another well-educated paintball player, I admit that I can recognize a hopper and tank when I see one. I could even recognize that a .68 caliber barrel size would allow me to distinguish a pb marker from a .556, .762, .308, 9mm, .44, .40, or .50 firearm any day (maybe not the .50). But you fail to realize that we are a special group that is privy to that information. Normal people aren't confronted with that every day. I learned that lesson back in the day with my bright orange-fade Defiant. Not only did i have a hopper and tank, but I had a freaking warp feed on the thing (remember those?) it didn't resemble a firearm in any way imaginable other than the fact that it had a standard .45 frame and a barrel. It still freaked out the neighbors and I respected the fact that it is best kept in a case even for the short walk from my car to my house (they called the cops, true story). It's always best to assume that the other guy has no idea that you're holding a marker and play it safe.

And I use fencing as a comparison to paintball. You can find anything you want at a renaissance fair or something, but that would be like comparing paintball players to vietnam or civil war reenactors. And just look at how they are portrayed in the media. Those guys have got the stigma that should be avoided.

excellent Mitch quote, btw (I'm thirsty for absolutely no reason, other than the fact that liquid has not touched my lips for some time. Can I have one, too, or does that lightning bolt mean "no?"). Please don't take this thread so personally (though you DO claim to eat babies... that also has its own stigma). I'm just trying to do the research so I can better explain my hobby to prospective players. I really want to know if there's any legal obligation with the orange tips.

Last edited by paintballenthusiast : 04-20-2010 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 03:45 PM #10
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I'm not sure where you are from so I can't comment on the law as it relates to firearms and paintball, but in Canada if you commit an offense with anything that appears to be a gun you can be charged with an offense as if it was a real one. It doesn't matter if its a piece of wood, a toy gun from a toy store or if its a paintball gun/airsoft.

Yes anyone can go in and buy a paintball gun from a store and use it in such a way as you described. This is part of the reason why I believe that large box stores should not carry them. I know the paintball store in town here has not sold gear to some people simply on a few words that they said.

I agree that its hard to get more people playing and that actions of others make it much harder to do just that. Store owners and players a like need to work together to remove the individuals that are giving paintball a poor image.

As for the orange tip, again not sure of the law where you are but it doesn't make it legal or illegal in Canada. Airsoft falls into a gray area between real firearms and replica firearms here.
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:34 PM #11
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Thanks, Re1ko. That's the kind of well-thought-out response I was looking for. As for me, I'm in the US (California, to be exact) and I'm sure the laws here would be more stringent than for the rest of the country. I completely agree that big box stores shouldn't carry PB or airsoft. There are too many street signs around here with paint all over them.
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:15 PM #12
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I thought there use to be a disclaimer saying that paintball markers were suppose to be purchased and supervised by someone atleaste 18 years old. I don't know if there is a age requirement to purchase a airsoft or toy cap gun. The orange tips on toy guns is so police can identify easier. alledgedly years ago a kid got shot by a cop responding to a possible breakin at a elementary school. It was just after sunset when a darkend figure pointed there weapon at the officer he did what instincts and training told him to do. Unfortunately they were just kids still playing after the street lights had came on and the story could just be a urban legend anyway.
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:52 AM #13
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The little orange tip for police is a joke. The only time an officer would go by the orange tip is if it was found in a vehicle. And I'm speaking from experience as a law enforcement officer. If you have something in your hand that looks like a gun I'm treating it like a gun until I have control of it.
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:04 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballenthusiast View Post
Shouldn't you guys be putting orange tips on your replica markers, like airsoft guns? What are the laws regarding replica markers? What's to stop some desperate psycho from running into a convenience store with one of these things? Do you feel any obligation to the general public? There are too many youtube videos of people running around "killing people" with MilSim markers. To what extent is this the manufacturer's concern? I suppose that controversy sells, but doesn't it worry you about the tarnished image of the sport?
Hey Obama....take it somewhere else. A post like this on this forum is asking for a flame war. At least Troll this over at the Random thoughts forum or something. Does not belong here.
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:37 PM #15
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Hey Obama....take it somewhere else. A post like this on this forum is asking for a flame war. At least Troll this over at the Random thoughts forum or something. Does not belong here.
Hey Ex-governor of Alaska and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Palin,

It was an innocent question. I wanted to go directly to the manufacturer for an answer. Hate somewhere else, flaming an innocent question is what starts flamewars. I'm not trying to take your precious gun away, I just couldn't answer a friend's question so I asked the general community. Chill out.

HOPE

Last edited by paintballenthusiast : 04-21-2010 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 04-21-2010, 03:19 PM #16
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Originally Posted by paintballenthusiast View Post
Hey Ex-governor of Alaska and Former Vice Presidential Candidate Palin,

It was an innocent question. I wanted to go directly to the manufacturer for an answer. Hate somewhere else, flaming an innocent question is what starts flamewars. I'm not trying to take your precious gun away, I just couldn't answer a friend's question so I asked the general community. Chill out.

HOPE
Thanks, I love Palin...

Not an innocent question at all, it's trolling for sure and does not belong in this forum. Why would you ask in a BT forum and not in a Tippy forum or for that matter a Rap 4 forum, they are way more milsim , no...total troll post, but I'm done here...

I'll keep my freedom, you can keep the Change...
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Old 04-21-2010, 04:33 PM #17
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...I'm done here...

I'll keep my freedom, you can keep the Change...
apology accepted.

This: http://www.btpaintball.com/images/products/omega.png
is very milsim. I went to the manufacturer of the marker that raised the question. The fact that I came to BT implies that I see them as an authority on the genre, and their forum is featured prevalently on pbnation.

As a side note: the company BT was founded by Ben Tippmann, so it's a family affair. Check your facts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tippmann) . I asked the question as it was posed to me, a paintball enthusiast, verbatim (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/verbatim) by a curious friend who has never played the sport. I had no answer. The question had been answered in a satisfying matter before you came in on the warpath.

As a matter of fact (not that I have anything to prove to you), I was a big fan of the original model 98 and my old setup featured a flatline (with full shroud) and a collapsible m4-style stock, as milsim as it got back in the day. Now that guns have reached an entirely new level of realism, I was curious about the implications.

The fact of the matter is that a question posed in text format leaves out the subtleties of body language and inflection. Additionally, the sense of anonymity allowed by an internet forum means that you know nothing about the person posing the question. When you combine these two facts, it allows you to read into anything you read online and then capitalize on your own anonymity by responding in such an aggressive manner. For further reading on this topic, see John Gabriel's theory posited by Penny Arcade at your own risk (Holkins and Krahulik 19 March 2004).

I meant no offense to BT or milsim by asking the question and I came to an authoritative figure for the answer to a question. I never implied that BT is ruining paintball's image, I merely asked for a manufacturer's opinion on an issue affecting the sport. The way that I posed the question insinuated that in the wrong hands (self-proclaimed "cereal killas", for example), the markers can have a negative outcome for the community at large.

Questions don't start flamewars. Overzealous fanboys do. And leave politics out of it. "Obama" is no more of an insult that "Palin." To quote a great band: "Keep your politics out of my apathy."

The path of the thread just happened to veer into my personal musings on the public image of the sport as it compares to another well-established combat sim: fencing. Both happen to be hobbies of mine that I am very passionate about. I like to be able to answer questions about my hobbies posed by people who I like to introduce to both.

I may not be done with this thread but I'm certainly done with responding to your accusations.

Thanks to all of you who were helpful in satisfying my query. I apologize to any of you who may have been offended by what I asked, but the beauty of a public forum is that you don't HAVE to respond to everything you read. For those of you who feel passionately enough to respond, I admire that passion for the sport. Thanks to BT and respectful BTers. No flame intended.

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Old 04-21-2010, 07:39 PM #18
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For the sake of clarity... (an exercise in persuasive writing)

The title of this thread "quick question" was intended to implicate that I didn't have the time to properly word the question. As implied by my flurry of activity in the post, I've got the time now.

The popularity of MilSim markers in paintball has spurred the industry to produce markers with a greater degree of realism than has ever before been attempted. Modern markers are made to accurately resemble M-16s, MP-5s, and MP-7s in order to promote the degree of immersion desired by scenario and woods players; bringing the paintball markers into the realm of realism that airsoft has delivered for years. Unfortunately, given the greater popularity of the former and the ease with which one can promote their own videos and (potentially twisted) ideals via the internet, this could propose a conundrum to the image of the sport as viewed by those who lack a proper understanding of its legitimacy. As a response to the realism of their products and, presumably, legislative pressures, airsoft manufacturers are often required to produce their products with orange tips or other safety measures which are intended to illustrate (albeit superficially, and trivially) that the product is, in fact, not a functioning firearm. My understanding is that this simple and patronizing practice may also provide a degree of liability coverage for the manufacturer which is increasingly important given the fact that ours is the culture of the "frivolous lawsuit." It is this understanding that has led me to the following questions: What are the laws pertaining to identification of replica firearms? Is there a fundamental difference between paintball markers and airsoft guns that is responsible for the orange tips? As a manufacturer, where do you see the future of MilSim markers (will there ever be fully-licensed paintball guns)? And, finally, given the fact that the industry is driven primarily by player demands and actions, to what extent is it the manufacturer's responsibility to uphold the image of the sport?

Because the markers have become so realistic, I assume that manufacturers of MilSim markers have become knowledgeable about the laws pertaining to the manufacture and sale of replica firearms. I live in a country where fast food corporations have been sued for selling coffee that is too hot (the way it's SUPPOSED to be served) or for selling food that causes weight gain (by an unfortunate victim of a functioning human digestive system). I would hate to see a scandal like this rock paintball and I'd like to see what steps have been taken to prevent this unfortunate outcome.

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Old 04-22-2010, 05:43 PM #19
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Well, you've certainly won me over with your delicate prose and thought provoking question. Firstly, I wish you luck with getting a thoughtful response from a manufacturer on these forums, I'm sure they're out there somewhere but I can't say I've ever seen a post from one.

Secondly, I agree that with concealed air tanks (in stocks), magazine fed paint and the move in some quarters towards .50 cal, markers are getting more and more self contained and looking more and more realistic. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something happen in the not too distant future that brings this to the attention of the government busybodies, who'll see this as a danger to the public and attempt some ham fisted approach to closing it down. We can all hope it doesn't happen but I think it's a distinct possibility and getting closer every day.

I'm not too familiar with the law/reasons why Airsoft needs the orange tips installed on them and Paintball doesn't. I wonder if the difference between them is the fact that Airsoft fires solid projectiles as opposed to hollow ones. Of course, both can be cranked up to crazy firing rates and speeds but I'm pretty sure you're not going to be able to puncture someone's skin with a paintball, whereas with a solid pellet/bb that's more of a possibility. I always wonder why if Airsoft has the Orange tip, why don't they have them on BB guns/rifles too?

Just a thought.

Best of luck finding your answer, I'll stay glued to this thread just in case :-)

Cheerz

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Old 04-22-2010, 07:47 PM #20
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Thank you, English (and Re1ko) for renewing my faith in internet humanity. I've contacted both BT and Tippmann with my question. I'll let you know what comes up.

Peace.
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:56 PM #21
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my best guess would be this:
Airsoft guns are ALL made to look as realistic as possible, even some of them have equivalent weight to make them seem like the real deal, and a lot of these guns are intended to introduce people to real fire-arms, or to use for target practice at short ranges. This puts Airsoft much closer to the real deal than PB markers, so to be safe they put the orange tips on them. It's also possible that the place or area where they are manufactured requires orange tips on them.
As for why PB guns DON'T have the orange tips, my guess would be that it's redundant. Only some (we'll say half) look realistic enough to possibly fool a store clerk, but realistically most PB markers don't look a thing like a real gun. Also, you can rob someone with a candybar in your jacket pocket if you want. The 9-11 hijackers used box cutters. Can you imagine a marker like an Ion or something with an orange tip on it?
Also, as far as milsim is concerned, an orange tip on a gun is not going to help you stay concealed in the woods, and the main reason people go milsim is for the realism, which is completely undone by an orange tip on the barrel.
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