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Old 05-06-2010, 12:24 PM #64
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Try convincing a bunch of insurance adjusters & actuaries to ignore the bottom line and open themselves up to paying oodles of new of injury claims.

Not going to happen
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Old 05-06-2010, 05:02 PM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace-fuk View Post
.Another way to see it would be to acknolege the fact that a .50 cal will have the same jouls applied to a smaller area . Smaller area less material to displace , hence "more force" upon impact will be focused deeper in to the traget.What ever target .

This is probably the worst interpretation of physics I have ever seen applied to this debate. Ever.

Just to make it legit...

We shouldn't compare 68 @ 300 fps to 50 @ 474 fps. Yes, they yield the same KE. Will any insurance companies ever allow that kind of velocity? No.
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Old 05-06-2010, 05:31 PM #66
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All i know is ive never had to dislodge a paintball from my body. I know plastic bb's and .50 cals are night and day, but there is a better chance of a 50 cal with cranked velocity breaking the skin (not a slightly seeping scrap). I'm all for progress in the sport and i dont mind bruises, but i am not a fan of leaving the field a bloody mess.

ps.... ever had a shell break on the mask and blow through to your face? Isn't is a possibility for the 50 cal to get through a soft mask like a flex? Not everytime but it could only take one time to do some damage.
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Old 05-06-2010, 07:01 PM #67
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^^^^^^

true.

[quote=IcePalaceStaff;66410326]This is probably the worst interpretation of physics I have ever seen applied to this debate. Ever.


LOL....why???
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:09 AM #68
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As for the impact, you have two components: deceleration and pressure.
Deceleration is all about time. Nothing happens instantly you have an object moving at an initial velocity striking another object. How much each object deforms will determine the time of the collision (Thats where the modulus of elasticity comes in) and the time determines the deceleration. since force = mass*acceleration dropping time raises acceleration and thus force. A smaller ball should in theory deform less and thus have greater force.
Pressure is force per area. This is simpler. A smaller area hits you, therefore greater pressure therefore greater force.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:37 PM #69
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For the two people above me...

1# After taking three years of physics I can tell you his sentence it true under one circumstance: If their momentum is equal.

If you have a ".68cal @ 300fps = .50cal @ 474fps" (I am assuming these calculations are correct, I took them from another post). Momentum = Mass x Velocity, so the smaller ball with a higher velocity will have an equal momentum. But because diameter of the .50 is obviously smaller (by .18cal) , it will apply the same force to a smaller area. area of a circle = pi*radius^2. For the .50 cal, the area=.7854in^2, the area of the .68=1.453in^2

So, the .50 caliber will apply the same force at 474fps as the .68 does at 300fps. But the 50 caliber applies that force to an area 1/2 the size, which means the force felt per unit area by 50 is twice that of the 68.

#2 Force=mass*acceleration... Correct. IF the acceleration is quicker (a higher m/s^2) and the mass stays the same this force will be higher, BUT the .50 mass is less which will balance out the equation.

Also I dont think this will play much into how much pain you feel when being struck. I doubt the difference in acceleration is enough to make noticeable difference. the real difference will be what I described above. The fact that at a higher FPS the .50 will have the same momentum, but will apply its force to a smaller area when decelerating.

Last edited by SockMonkey : 05-13-2010 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:27 PM #70
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^^^^^
Thank you , first of all and yes I'm talking about a .50 cal and a .68 flying with same momentum or force.
-------------------------------
Originally Posted by ace-fuk :

Another way to see it would be to acknolege the fact that a .50 cal will have the same jouls applied to a smaller area . Smaller area less material to displace , hence "more force" upon impact will be focused deeper in to the traget.What ever target .
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Originally Posted by fock0
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Last edited by ace-fuk : 05-13-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:05 PM #71
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I decided to crunch the numbers.
Known:
Volume of sphere = 4/3(pi)r^3
Mass of a .68 paintball = 3.2 grams =.0032 Kg
.68 inches = .0173 meters
.5 inches = .0127 meters
300 fps = 91.44 m/s

Therefore the volume of a .68 paintball is 4/3(pi)(.0173/2)^3 = 2.71E-6 m^3
volume of a .5 paintball = 1.07E-6 m^3
density (P) of a paintball is therefore m/v = .0032/2.71E-6 = 1180.36 kg/m^3
Therefore mass of a .5 paintball = P(v) = 1180.36(1.07E-6) = .00127Kg

momentum
mv(.68) = mv(.5)
(.0032)(91.44) = (.00127)V

therefore V = 230.4m/s = 756 ft/s.

I'm really hoping I'm wrong. If someone else can disprove me that'd be great.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:10 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tactstyle View Post
All i know is ive never had to dislodge a paintball from my body. I know plastic bb's and .50 cals are night and day, but there is a better chance of a 50 cal with cranked velocity breaking the skin (not a slightly seeping scrap). I'm all for progress in the sport and i dont mind bruises, but i am not a fan of leaving the field a bloody mess.

ps.... ever had a shell break on the mask and blow through to your face? Isn't is a possibility for the 50 cal to get through a soft mask like a flex? Not everytime but it could only take one time to do some damage.
The increased deceleration wont really cause that big of a difference. That is assuming companies make a comparably thinner shell for the smaller balls. Also I highly doubt a .50 will "get through" a soft mask. Soft masks like the flex attempt to slow and deflect not stop. The only way I could see that changing is if the balls are substantially harder to break or warp. As long as the manufacturer makes the shell thinner it should be fine.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:32 PM #73
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ever use paint that has sat arround for a few months? I wasnt talking about every shot making it through but isnt it plausible that a "freak incident" can occur? id say so
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:39 PM #74
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Originally Posted by cpt_crunch View Post
I'm really hoping I'm wrong. If someone else can disprove me that'd be great.
I didnt bust out my TI-83 but using the crappy one in windows I checked a couple of your numbers and they seem to be correct.. Maybe if I get some more ambition I will go to my car and get it, but finals are over and I don't really want to deal with this stuff

But like I said, your math seems to be good. 750fps in order to equal the impact of a .68 at 300.. Thats a tough one to sell. But it makes sense considering a .68's volume is more then double that of the .50

But then again, if they make the paintball correctly (thinner shelled) then you wouldnt need to create an impact of equal force to get consistent paint breaks.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:50 PM #75
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It all comes down to what the ASTM committee for paintball wants to do. Ultimately, they decide what velocities the paintball industry is going to use, because the insurance companies defer to them. The current position within the ASTM committee is to keep everything at the same velocity.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:14 AM #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SockMonkey View Post
I didnt bust out my TI-83 but using the crappy one in windows I checked a couple of your numbers and they seem to be correct.. Maybe if I get some more ambition I will go to my car and get it, but finals are over and I don't really want to deal with this stuff

But like I said, your math seems to be good. 750fps in order to equal the impact of a .68 at 300.. Thats a tough one to sell. But it makes sense considering a .68's volume is more then double that of the .50

But then again, if they make the paintball correctly (thinner shelled) then you wouldnt need to create an impact of equal force to get consistent paint breaks.
for momentum, that's right. however, considering the fact that that's 2/3 the speed of sound in air at sea level, it's a good thing we care about kinetic energy for comparing velocities

.5*m*v^2, plugging in your knowns will get you closer to the numbers other people have posted.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:22 PM #77
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Lol completely forgot.. yes.. kinetic energy.. wow.. And I bragged about takes years of physics. guess im the *******
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:56 PM #78
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^^^ LOL! no i'm the ******* , *p
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:11 PM #79
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Originally Posted by SockMonkey View Post
Lol completely forgot.. yes.. kinetic energy.. wow.. And I bragged about takes years of physics. guess im the *******
it wasn't a completely worthless exercise though. We have seen people bring up momentum as a measurement before. Now we have a nice simple post to defer to. (it'll be near impossible for a .5 to have the same momentum as a .68)
So if you are ever at a carnival trying to knock down milk bottles use the .68
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:12 AM #80
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Wasn't one of the points of .50 cal to get more/NEW people into the sport? Well I don't see how telling a newbie that you are going to shoot a small paintball at them at 400fps (which is what I am reading is necessary for .50 to perform like .68) is going to draw more people. 400fps = 272 miles/hr. We sit here arguing about whats painful or not to us. Carrying more or less paint. But fact is if .50 cal not brought back up we would still grab our gear and go out to the fields like we have always done. You can talk till you're blue in the face about kinetic energy, joules and all that but all that matters to a newbie is "how fast do they shoot" and "does it hurt".


Not to mention all this stuff about conversion kits and what not is kinda of pointless, imo. If you go to any normal rec field whats the most commonly rented marker? A Tippmann right? And has tippmann shown any sign of making a conversion kit? None that I have seen. Matter fact they are starting to push some paintball laser tag thing. So if the most commonly used rental marker is not jumping on the .50 cal bandwagon then doesn't it go to say that fields wont be stocking .50 cal paint? And if fields aren't stocking .50 cal paint how would you assume .50 cal would ever take over?
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:22 PM #81
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This has been done before - .43 and .60 never took off either.

I don't see .50 replacing .68 anytime soon. Long-established industry standards are hard to overcome, companies are going to have to make the consumer WANT to convert to .50 cal. to make it worth their while. Then the sales numbers have to be good enough to keep the ball rolling. THEN you'll see a change.

I have yet to read or see anything that would make me want to change calibers. Knowledge of the laws of physics tells me that a .50 caliber paintball is not going to perform as well as a .68, outside factors like wind and penetrating brush/leaves just have to have more of an adverse effect on a smaller/lighter projectile. If velocities could be safely raised, and in turn produce longer ranges and greater accuracy than with a .68 cal. ball, then .50 caliber would get my interest.

One thing for sure, you could certainly tote more paint onto the field. Or carry the same amount you usually carry in a much smaller and lighter package. That is a very positive point to .50 cal.

Less-than-honorable players already wipe .68 hits, downsizing the amount of fill in each hit will only make this easier. In no time you'll have folks bonus-balling the crap out of people.

I'm not too concerned about the pain factor. I think it should hurt when you get hit, it's part of the game. I've read some posts stating that .50's hurt more than a .68 at the same velocity. Seems to me that a smaller/lighter projectile traveling at the same approximate 300 fps is going to hurt less? I guess I'd need someone to light me up w/ some .50's to really know for sure...

Last edited by MikeC13 : 06-10-2010 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:29 PM #82
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ive been shot with both, from the same gun and velocity, and I didnt notice a difference in pain
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Old 06-19-2010, 06:01 PM #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeC13 View Post
I'm not too concerned about the pain factor. I think it should hurt when you get hit, it's part of the game. I've read some posts stating that .50's hurt more than a .68 at the same velocity. Seems to me that a smaller/lighter projectile traveling at the same approximate 300 fps is going to hurt less? I guess I'd need someone to light me up w/ some .50's to really know for sure...
This should be true, it follow common sense. But, a smaller area of impact leads to more force in that smaller spot, causing more pain.
Its science that it(.50) hurts more. But things like adrenaline, padding, fat, etc are going to dilute the science.
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:22 PM #84
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i like 50 cal. <3
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