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Old 04-19-2010, 03:11 PM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger70chall View Post
I'll try to dig it up...all these threads seem to end up the same

I didn't work with the size of the sphere because the most painful shots are the ones that don't break (all the energy goes into hitting you and bouncing off, while the breaks distribute the energy)..at least that was my reasoning and experience from playing. To me that would mean the toughness of the shell shouldn't change the results. It might mean more bounces (similar to what testing has shown) but shouldn't mean more painful.

I'm too cheap to buy a gun just to let someone shoot me with it
the thickness of the shell would change the impulse significantly. The sooner it breaks, the sooner the surface area increases, and increased surface area means less pressure, and less pain, which is why bounces hurt like hell. like you said though, if they don't break, it doesn't matter if you're getting hit with a paintball or a rock with that mass, it'll feel the same (assuming the paintball doesn't deform when it hits you, which it probably will).
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:33 AM #44
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I have been waiting for this caliber war for almost a decade. I knew it would come, and now it's finally here. But, not all is well. There are a few issues I see that will severely cripple the success and potential of this "reborn" paintball caliber. Not to worry for all of you .68 cal lovers out there, I assure you, there will always be a place in the heart of paintball for your .68 cal marker. That being said, lets get started...

I am going to begin by a saying, "If you are going to go, go ALL out." If they are expecting a "revolutionary" change in the sport of paintball towards the .50 cal, they can't be half-*** about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited to see two major manufacturers like Smart Parts and Kingman on board, but, quite frankly, I think what they are doing is meager. Although, not all of this lies in the hands of the manufacturers, the majority of it is going to depend on what the paintball leagues, organizations, fields, and players decide.
Smart Parts is no longer around...

First off, limiting the performance of .50 cal markers to the same standards as the .68 is ludacris, this is a totally different animal. By having the same velocity caps, you are taking all of the potential out of the .50 caliber. To make it equivilant or improve its ballistic properties, you NEED higher velocity.
There are safety issues involved with raising the velocity cap. I'm not against it, but it would need to be thoroughly tested before that happens. Has .50 been tested at higher velocity's yet to see if it does perform better?

There is similar debate that has been going on far longer then it has in the context of paintball. Take the 7.62mm and 5.56mm debate for example. This is basically the same thing going on in paintball right now. The only saving graces that the 5.56mm had over its 7.62mm counterpart were velocity and size. If they designed the 5.56mm round to have the slower velocity of the 7.62mm, it would completely degrade the efectiveness and purpose of the round.

In another thread, somebody figured out that to give the .50 basically the same ballistic properties, it would need to travel around 400-450 FPS. The company RAP4 has been manufacturing .43 cal markers modeled after M4 Carbine variants for years. Most of their product line is designed for law enforcement and military use, but they get around the undesired degredation in ballistic performance by utilizing a velocity range between 300-400 FPS (they used to have models up to 450 FPS). This is also why most high-end airsoft guns shoot upwards of 500 FPS, to increase the ballistic properties.
Airsoft guns use a lightweight 6mm bb. Don't compare, please. Paintball @ 400 fps does not equate to a .50 cal paintball @400fps.

Obviously there would need to be different leagues or these .50 cal markers, due to the differences between the two. I have a feeling the .50 at a higher velocity lends itself to the woodsball/scenario player more so then the speedball player, however, the ability to carry mass quantities of paint in the same equipment is quite appealing for a tournament player. Another advantage to this increased velocity is very obvious, reaction time. With a .68 moving at 280 FPS, you can see the paint coming and have some time to react. A .50 cal moving at 450-500 FPS on the other hand, not so much.
.50 cal @ higher velocity's could possibly solve the problem of simulating sniper roles in woodsball. Allow some users to have a sniper, using 10-round tubes and enforcing a minimum engagement distance to keep it fair and safe. I'd be all for that


They boast it will gain efficiency, I ask, why not keep the efficiency the same and make it shoot farther and drop less? I hear a lot of people also saying "they don't sting as much!", I say, stop being a ***** and crank that velocity up. I'll be damned if I see the sport I love that is supposed to hurt go "soft". For all intended purposes, paintball was designed to simulate war, I pay top dollar to make sure my experience simulates that as closely as possible (sans the death part). Statistically, paintball is still one of the safest sports around, majority of injuries are sprained ankles. Why not push the envelope a little, besides, didn't you sign a waiver?

It's not that we as experienced players can't take the pain, it's the new players. The one's that can be turned away because of the fear associated with getting shot. If you love this sport, I'm sure you wouldn't want to drive away players who help finance your industry and let it grow. Paintball is one of the safest sports..yes we understand that statistics are used that say it's super safe, but bloody welts on your neck aren't documented in those statistics.

Tell me that getting bunkered in the neck with a .50 cal round @ 400fps is not going to hurt significantly more. It's not going to bleed more. Injuries COULD start happening in this case. Let's keep our sport safe and fun.
I know you probably enjoy the scenario/woodsball aspect of paintball, but some of us don't wish for paintball to be perceived as a war game. We want to be a sport. I'm not hating on woods/scenario ball, I'm an avid scenario-attendee . I think that raising the velocity has it's ups and down's, and should only be implemented where it makes sense (sniper roles, etc). I don't think that velocity has a place on the speedball field, it gets far too close and personal.



All said and done, increasing velocity might sting, A LOT, well... then don't get hit, it wouldn't be for everyone. Maybe it would make people better players, maybe it would make you a better person, maybe it would change the WORLD!... Eh, maybe not. It just seems like everybody wants to make paintball gentler, less painful, and more "politically correct" with this new ".50 cal revolution". What about those of us that want to do actual "MILSIM" and im not just talking about a downsized SP1 made to shoot .50 cals at 280 FPS, I want something that shoots at velocities that you are afraid to get hit at, something you can't just wipe off, shrug, and act like it didn't happen. If they truly want to use this .50 caliber to bridge the gap between paintball and airsoft, you are going to need higher velocity to do so.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:36 AM #45
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Yes actually. I have seen them take out a tooth before.

Those who didn't learn about surface area didn't pay attention in school
I have four friends with chipped teeth from one weekend of play in their backyards. Bunch of high school kids went out and played a few games out in a large area of woods.

Better yet, they were using airsoft guns purchased at walmart/dunham's sporting goods. The kind that shoot <300 fps.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:11 PM #46
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Exactly.

This talk of wanting a higher fps limit for .50 is complete non-sense. It's almost like they are being forced to shoot with .50 cal since they can't make the rational decision to just stick with whats proven to work already. Why take junk and try to improve it when a perfectly working projectile is out on the market right now (.68cal)
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:20 PM #47
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:11 PM #48
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Originally Posted by Logan09 View Post
Exactly.

This talk of wanting a higher fps limit for .50 is complete non-sense. It's almost like they are being forced to shoot with .50 cal since they can't make the rational decision to just stick with whats proven to work already. Why take junk and try to improve it when a perfectly working projectile is out on the market right now (.68cal)
I would rather play with any size caliber at a higher velocity honestly (up until that point where they swerve all over the place).

If they raised the velocity of .50 cal I think you would see a shift since the major argument against it is the poor ballistics compared to .68

You would get higher capacity or smaller hoppers, create smaller guns, lighter loads on your back, and a faster ball creates less time to react (and I think a flatter trajectory for the majority of the distance traveled, have to think on that one)

This is all wasted discussion though unless someone has heard a shift towards increasing the velocity?
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:12 AM #49
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There will be no velocity increase. Insurance companies have spoken.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:50 AM #50
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I haven't seen anything one way or another from insurance companies and a search didn't come up with anything for me
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:51 AM #51
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A publication "not to be named" had the official response from the insurance groups - no to higher velocities, regardless of caliber.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:32 AM #52
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Airsoft injuries are plentiful and frequent.
And then we're talking injuries sustained while being shot!

Chipped teeth, projectiles breaking skin, projectiles digging into the skin and whatnot.


...Just so the person that said there are no injuries in airsoft knows!

And airsoft:ers seem to have less of a safety thinking than paintballers. I am not saying that paintball is perfect by any means, but A LOT better than airsoft in the security factor of it all.
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:56 PM #53
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if the amount of force (impact) in a .50cal ball shot at 300fps is lower then a .68 cal.....wouldn't it make sense to crank the velocity to a rate that would equal the forcce (impact) of a .68 cal. I know they are different aniamals again but airsoft shoots at a much higher velocity. Just because these have been the standards so far....doesn't mean they will always be the same

Just a question.....i'm not a scientist.
it will defently hurt you more , it will have a smaller profile allowing it to penetrate more deeply in to you're skin , gear, goggle mask and even worst if it is a soft type face cover like a jt flex .Another way to see it would be to acknolege the fact that a .50 cal with 13 jouls punch will have the same jouls as a .68 cal applied to a smaller area . Smaller area less material to displace , hence "more force" upon impact and the energy will be focused deeper in to the traget.What ever target: skin , gear , lenses , pods and packs .
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:52 PM #54
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Originally Posted by Digger70chall View Post
I would rather play with any size caliber at a higher velocity honestly (up until that point where they swerve all over the place).

If they raised the velocity of .50 cal I think you would see a shift since the major argument against it is the poor ballistics compared to .68

You would get higher capacity or smaller hoppers, create smaller guns, lighter loads on your back, and a faster ball creates less time to react (and I think a flatter trajectory for the majority of the distance traveled, have to think on that one)

This is all wasted discussion though unless someone has heard a shift towards increasing the velocity?
No. Insurance companies will not allow anything over 300 fps.

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There will be no velocity increase. Insurance companies have spoken.
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I haven't seen anything one way or another from insurance companies and a search didn't come up with anything for me
Nothing official, because this whole 50 cal movement is not large enough for insurance to come out and say anything, but as of now, field velocities cannot exceed 300 fps.

50 cal at the same speed of 68 will hurt less, of course. However, increasing the speed will make up the loss of mass. I cannot think of the formula, but if the speed is increased, it is going to hurt just as much, and consume just as much air.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:57 PM #55
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the pain thing is a ginormous can of worms that i don't want to get into, but the other part is just some simple kinematics. it might end up being a little more efficient due to the smaller volume of air behind the ball (kinda like how an ans ram uses less air than a belsales to produce the same force because the ans has a smaller bore). at those speeds, i wouldn't be surprised if the balls started swirling all over, unless they do something to the shell to make it rougher (think shark skin, golf balls, that kind of thing).
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:16 PM #56
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I totally belive that .50 is the perfect thing for beginners .less pain , more shosts per tank fill , paintballs cost less.I mean it's perfect for a field owners to rent .50 cals .it will defently be a much more atractive game for the first time player and way more cost eficient for the field owner.

Now when i take a diferent look at the .50 cal it lacks performence. to be taking it seriuosly for tourney play will be a mistake at least for now.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:33 PM #57
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I totally belive that .50 is the perfect thing for beginners .less pain , more shosts per tank fill , paintballs cost less.I mean it's perfect for a field owners to rent .50 cals .it will defently be a much more atractive game for the first time player and way more cost eficient for the field owner.

Now when i take a diferent look at the .50 cal it lacks performence. to be taking it seriuosly for tourney play will be a mistake at least for now.
the ability to carry a ton more paint in your hoppers and tubes could appeal to some. Even if i'm almost positive that .50 cal won't break on me from across the field I still won't go run in front of it so it could work off the break. Front players wouldn't have to reload as much either.

I'm actually interested in how much .50 cal current hoppers can hold compared to .68 cal (not interested enough to buy a bag though )
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:28 PM #58
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^^^^^

true ,the amount of paint you can carry is more than dobbled.
I think the average .50 cal hopper holds around 350 paintballs.Corect if i'm wrong.

Defently it's an atvantage for roping and closing lanes .But the fact that they don't break as easily as a .68 cal makes you want to shoot more wich I think is draw back when playing tight and you are snap shooting or even in a corner or as a cover player you will be expose more time because you will be compeled to shoot more .But then again skills will minimize the chance of been picked off right lol .

You want to have a break on impact on the first try when playing tourney thats the name of the game .One way to get my point will be to admit that pro and serious tornament players consider bad paint any paint left on you after a game. They just throw it away and some times when closing the game they chose to throw away paint on the hopper and put a fresh pod in to make sure the have better chances of getting that last guy .

If you have a paintball that you know that even when fresh it has problems braking would you use it for winning ....I gess not .

joy division will be using .50 cals on the millenium series lets see how it goes for them .Regardles after watching I now think that .50 cal has it place in our world.
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Originally Posted by fock0
negro you need to calm the **** down, and put your gun in PSP Millennium

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Last edited by ace-fuk : 05-06-2010 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:19 PM #59
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The only reason anyone dumps paint out of their loader on purpose is if they break paint in their loader, paintballs don't become worse by sitting in a hopper for two minutes.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:54 AM #60
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The only reason anyone dumps paint out of their loader on purpose is if they break paint in their loader, paintballs don't become worse by sitting in a hopper for two minutes.
or you want to make sure you get that last guy.

I totaly agree with the appeal of bringing more paint to the field but we need to admit that this will change the dinamics of the game .More shoots on the air ; More longer ropes . More precence for the corner/back players .All of this will allow for more chances for the front and mid players to take terrain and get that angles.

I'm telling you people my only complaint about .50 cal has to be the bounce factor .
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negro you need to calm the **** down, and put your gun in PSP Millennium

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Old 05-06-2010, 12:39 PM #61
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dumping paint out of your hopper to put in fresh stuff is a sure-fire way to make sure that last guy gets you.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:46 PM #62
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dumping paint out of your hopper to put in fresh stuff is a sure-fire way to make sure that last guy gets you.
lol .....only if you a dumb enough to do it in the middle of a gun fight. In wich case I would dump all the paint on him and then reload fresh paint.If i see a bounce i will defently will want to better my chances of a break i would defently , if given a chance, discard tha "bad" paint and put the best next thing to loading straight from the box ...a pod . Then again if it is a hot humid day you might still have some bounces . come on people remember the odds and angles . better odds more chances for you to win .

lets stay on topic
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Originally Posted by fock0
negro you need to calm the **** down, and put your gun in PSP Millennium

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Last edited by ace-fuk : 05-06-2010 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:55 PM #63
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.68 and .50 is a big deal. lets be realistic, if it were to become popular which im not gonna say is impossible, there would have to be a velocity change. it would be outright ridiculous not to for the efficiency just would not be there at 300 fps. i play alot of walk ons as well as speedball and know how innacurate .68 caliber can be on a large field 100+ yards
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