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Old 04-15-2010, 02:03 AM #64
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Christmas along with all other holidays have pegan orgins.

Yes, i'm a real Christian
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:05 AM #65
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1. it's not suppose to be an absolutist argument. i am just saying i could understand why. I mean c'mon, that is such a no bull****-theory. it's not suppose to say everyone post-30 is like that, but there are a large group of people that are. I mean sociology and psychology aren't absolutist studies.

I don't know if I am using absolutist right. well i guess i am if you know what i am saying

Everything belows applies to 2:

1. We both say "what the ****" to a god that enjoys torture. we also both decide to not agree with that idea

2. After 1, we both make decisions. You continue to be a Christian, I don't

3. I don't continue to be a Christian because if I am going to just pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe, why do i even bother continuing to be a Christian. I mean, from step one, i don't even agree with their idea of God. And I also don't want to support a church that worships that specific idea of god (which is irrelevant, but a good point). Sure you can be follower of Jesus, but still, why would you just believe in that part of the Bible and not the others? And why only a follower of Jesus?

4. And I don't understand this whole Christian idea of being in a relationship with God. Uh...yeah. I don't even see where that comes from, why there is even an earth if that is the case, how people are actually having a relationship with god. it just seems like something made up to deny what the Bible really says. As far as my going to church every sunday for 16 years and my six years of religious schooling, and that one year in fourth grade where I started a bible study called "safari bible", that is just a ****ing cutoff of the BIble.

I think it more to be a book on:
1. Don't **** with God, look how he has ****ed up all these people. Just don't **** with him
2. Here is Jesus, follow him
3. If you follow Jesus, God won't **** with you.

In my experience I have never seen anything in the Bible which states that the human purpose is to "have a relationship with God." There are so many stupid things wrong with that. I mean if that is the case, what is the problem of us inherently knowing that. I mean, do you honestly have conversations with God. You just said that "if god exists.." i mean, you are an active Christian (i think) who believes the purpose of life is to have a relationship with god but you can't even tell me if god exists. holy **** dude, i mean c'mon

Edit: what i just wrote is very sloppy, i am missing a lot of things, not emphasizing my points, but i think you have been on here long enough to be able to interpret my ****ty stuff.

P.S. if I come off as an *******, it's merely the problem of text. i am not yelling at my computer, its more of a soft-trying to understand-tone. maybe i should put this above..
instead of responding to the parts asking about my life, I'll respond to what I think is the crux of your argument:

tell me what parts of the Bible I'm ignoring.
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:54 AM #66
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To answer the original question, most theologians and Biblical historians would agree that Jesus was actually born summer/spring prior to the year "0." Herod, the man who attempted to kill all children under 2 years in the Palestinian area, died in 4 B.C. (according to many reliable historical sources). So, it is safe to conclude that prior to 4 B.C., Jesus was at least born and under the age of 2 years. Also, as already pointed out, the shepherds in the field would not be in the field during winter, and primarily only in the field in summer/spring. an exact date is not know. Our tradition of Christmas developed as a response to a Pagan holiday in the Greco-Roman world known as Saturnalia. When Constantine took over the Empire and changed the religion to Christianity, he responded by replacing Saturnalia with (what is now know as) Christmas. The original Church in the 1st century did not celebrate it as remembering the birth of Christ until around 315 A.D. ish. Hope this helps.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:45 AM #67
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Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
instead of responding to the parts asking about my life, I'll respond to what I think is the crux of your argument:

tell me what parts of the Bible I'm ignoring.
these debates are just horrible, on both of our parts. i mean, really.

as far as i am concerned there are verses in the bible which tell people they will go to hell if they don't except jesus in their heart. we both agree that a god wouldn't do this. so i don't take part in the christian religion. yeah, it has good moral lessons, but why would i even bother to be a christian why i don't believe in one of the most important things?
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:51 PM #68
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Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
these debates are just horrible, on both of our parts. i mean, really.

as far as i am concerned there are verses in the bible which tell people they will go to hell if they don't except jesus in their heart. we both agree that a god wouldn't do this. so i don't take part in the christian religion. yeah, it has good moral lessons, but why would i even bother to be a christian why i don't believe in one of the most important things?
I don't agree with what you say the Bible tells people.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:25 PM #69
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I don't agree with what you say the Bible tells people.
well, as far as i am concerned, my interpretation believes that, markcheb's interpretation believes that, and every other christian i know believes the same. like i said, why even bother interpreting it besides a literal way
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Old 04-16-2010, 12:19 AM #70
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I think you need to broaden your horizons a little. Maybe pay attention to a few things outside of the usual "atheism/christiantiy" dichotomy.

Do some studying on the Bahá'í Faith (from a purely sociological standpoint of course). Especially their stance on Progressive Revelation, or the Oneness of Religion as they might refer to it, it has a rather good logic to it. Or maybe something like Confucianism.
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Old 04-16-2010, 06:31 AM #71
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well, as far as i am concerned, my interpretation believes that, markcheb's interpretation believes that, and every other christian i know believes the same. like i said, why even bother interpreting it besides a literal way
I'm not interpreting it any other than a literal way. I'm not lying or bending anything about it. I am taking it at face value.

There's a huge and growing segment of modern Christianity that is "coming around" to "my" way of thinking. Check out just about anything by Greg Boyd or Alan Hirsch. The Vineyard Church movement. Kensington church and church plants from Michigan.

You can make whatever decision you want, but if you just say "well as far as I'm concerned", you've placed yourself squarely in your own biased "over 30" group.

How could you possibly believe I could accept this without believing that God would give us all the facts before we make the decision that counts?
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:47 AM #72
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i think what it all comes down to is

1. anyone who argues against christianity is essentially begging the question, "can you give me a logical argument proving why christianity is the right religion?"

2. Even if you did give an argument for 1, it would be debated for thousands of years.

3. if you gave an undefeatable argument for number one, i am not would want to take part in a universe with a definite meaning

and 4. humans have this delusion of free will and significance and that just pushes all of this
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Old 04-16-2010, 03:26 PM #73
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i think what it all comes down to is

1. anyone who argues against christianity is essentially begging the question, "can you give me a logical argument proving why christianity is the right religion?"

2. Even if you did give an argument for 1, it would be debated for thousands of years.

3. if you gave an undefeatable argument for number one, i am not would want to take part in a universe with a definite meaning

and 4. humans have this delusion of free will and significance and that just pushes all of this
so basically, you have made up your mind and it really doesn't matter if you're wrong because nothing can convince you otherwise anyways.
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Old 04-16-2010, 03:58 PM #74
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so basically, you have made up your mind and it really doesn't matter if you're wrong because nothing can convince you otherwise anyways.
dude, i have already said in this thread, prove to me i am wrong. go back and read
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:26 PM #75
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dude, i have already said in this thread, prove to me i am wrong. go back and read
but number 3 and 4 already said you've made up your mind on the subject anyways.

the thing is, if we don't agree on what the Bible says, what does it matter what I say? You think it damns people to eternal suffering and I think that's retarded. Unless we can agree on that, all else is moot.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:41 PM #76
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but number 3 and 4 already said you've made up your mind on the subject anyways.

the thing is, if we don't agree on what the Bible says, what does it matter what I say? You think it damns people to eternal suffering and I think that's retarded. Unless we can agree on that, all else is moot.
tell me why i sholdn't think that
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:33 PM #77
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I agree w/ Laureate, always have...

The bible doesn't "damn" us to hell; our choices through trials alone determine that. Problem is, our choices are only as good as our physical make, designed by God. A body is merely a machine, and like all machines they operate within any number of parameters, which means the potential to calculate each function is theoretically plausible to determine in advance. So, if that's indeed the case: how can ANYONE honestly justify the notion of "free" within the largest of scales?

Basically... (to use a real world analogy) God creating life, (trees, ponds, animals, etc...) is really no different than humans programming software; a video game, for example...
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Old 04-16-2010, 11:54 PM #78
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A body is merely a machine, and like all machines they operate within any number of parameters, which means the potential to calculate each function is theoretically plausible to determine in advance. how can ANYONE honestly justify the notion of "free" within the largest of scales?
But I am not a machine. There is one huge difference. I have a will. I dont have to do what I am "programmed" to do.

Ex. I am "programmed" to want to be selfish.
I have the will to be selfless.

"Good" people aren't "programmed" differently than the rest of us. They just refuse to listen to that "programming"

----------------

Now my turn to ask you a question. Since when has Christianity been about making all the right decisions? Last time I checked we weren't called not to sin, just to try.
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Old 04-16-2010, 11:58 PM #79
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But I am not a machine. There is one huge difference. I have a will. I dont have to do what I am "programmed" to do.

Ex. I am "programmed" to want to be selfish.
I have the will to be selfless.

"Good" people aren't "programmed" differently than the rest of us. They just refuse to listen to that "programming"
lol hahahahahhaa
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Old 04-17-2010, 01:45 AM #80
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But I am not a machine. There is one huge difference. I have a will. I dont have to do what I am "programmed" to do.

Ex. I am "programmed" to want to be selfish.
I have the will to be selfless.

"Good" people aren't "programmed" differently than the rest of us. They just refuse to listen to that "programming"

----------------

Now my turn to ask you a question. Since when has Christianity been about making all the right decisions? Last time I checked we weren't called not to sin, just to try.
Hmm... I'm still unsure as how that response you provided correlates to mine, in-turn?

You have precisely what God gave you, and strictly that. Your choices are formed based solely on the physical world that He first provided, no more, no less -- no different than what any programmer/engineer/architect/designer today does w his/her creations.

The only difference here, is that we have yet developed any working "will" algorithm into any software/structure, at least none that I am aware of

As for uh, moral perfections, or perhaps the lack thereof, actually? I don't recall ever forming an argument for, or against such concerns. I believe Christian laws states we must only strive for perfection, for man is forever fallible. The rest, on where we inevitably fall short, requires that we must first repent in order to inherit salvation.
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Old 04-17-2010, 02:22 AM #81
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Quote:
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The only difference here, is that we haven't developed a working "will" into any software/structure yet, at least none that I am aware of
I have, of a sort. More metaphorical, and it's dependent on physical interactions instead of electronic.

Allow me to explain.

Start with computer controlled milling machine. I use one at work, though it's technically a router (subtle differences, but still think of a giant dremel tool on steroids moved by a robot). You take a block of material (an individual), clamp in into place (no free will), run the program (created inputs), and it machines it into a predictable part (predetermined outcome).

Now take your block of material and Don't clamp it into place. Grant it free will, in a metaphorical sense. Run the program and the part will come out completely random. It will get sucked towards the cutter, or thrown away from the cutter, it will tip on it's side, slide away from the cutter, get flung across the room, or all of the above and more. Run that part a million times and it will never come out the same twice. You may be able to come up with a statistical pattern to the final average shape, but there will be measurable differences between each one.

We're un-clamped. Take any given collection of inputs and the output will still be inherently unpredictable. Middle income + strict religious upbringing + liberal college may equal a ranting atheist, or it might equal a devout bible thumper, or it might equal homeless crackhead.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:35 AM #82
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I have, of a sort. More metaphorical, and it's dependent on physical interactions instead of electronic.

Allow me to explain.

Start with computer controlled milling machine. I use one at work, though it's technically a router (subtle differences, but still think of a giant dremel tool on steroids moved by a robot). You take a block of material (an individual), clamp in into place (no free will), run the program (created inputs), and it machines it into a predictable part (predetermined outcome).

Now take your block of material and Don't clamp it into place. Grant it free will, in a metaphorical sense. Run the program and the part will come out completely random. It will get sucked towards the cutter, or thrown away from the cutter, it will tip on it's side, slide away from the cutter, get flung across the room, or all of the above and more. Run that part a million times and it will never come out the same twice. You may be able to come up with a statistical pattern to the final average shape, but there will be measurable differences between each one.

We're un-clamped. Take any given collection of inputs and the output will still be inherently unpredictable. Middle income + strict religious upbringing + liberal college may equal a ranting atheist, or it might equal a devout bible thumper, or it might equal homeless crackhead.
LoL on the last paragraph

But uh, are you implying QM logic here as evidence, in support of our alleged free-will?
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:47 AM #83
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Start with computer controlled milling machine. I use one at work, though it's technically a router (subtle differences, but still think of a giant dremel tool on steroids moved by a robot). You take a block of material (an individual), clamp in into place (no free will), run the program (created inputs), and it machines it into a predictable part (predetermined outcome).

Now take your block of material and Don't clamp it into place. Grant it free will, in a metaphorical sense. Run the program and the part will come out completely random. It will get sucked towards the cutter, or thrown away from the cutter, it will tip on it's side, slide away from the cutter, get flung across the room, or all of the above and more. Run that part a million times and it will never come out the same twice. You may be able to come up with a statistical pattern to the final average shape, but there will be measurable differences between each one.

We're un-clamped. Take any given collection of inputs and the output will still be inherently unpredictable. Middle income + strict religious upbringing + liberal college may equal a ranting atheist, or it might equal a devout bible thumper, or it might equal homeless crackhead.

this thread has drifted so far. but this isn't a great example, because if you knew all the variables you would still know what happened even if it was unclamped. statistics is just a field used for our ignorance. when we don't all the variables, we use statistics. (exempt that claim from quantum physics)
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:45 PM #84
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this thread has drifted so far. but this isn't a great example, because if you knew all the variables you would still know what happened even if it was unclamped. statistics is just a field used for our ignorance. when we don't all the variables, we use statistics. (exempt that claim from quantum physics)
Now that's a mater of faith, now isn't it? You're assuming there's a finite number of variables to start with. With the goal of having two finished pieces come out identical you'd start chasing down the variables, trying to find two starting pieces that are perfectly identical. You try making the initial situation identical. You try making any unintended outside influences identical. But you can NEVER nail down all the variables. As you go finer and finer in your observations to find the cause of a variable, you fine yet more. Also as you go finer and finer with your observations your margins of error become harder to achieve, you notice differences that weren't noticed before.

And you really should study quantum physics more. It's application to this subject is deeper than one would seem.

Here's a good read...
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philos...eterminism.htm
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