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Old 04-12-2010, 11:28 PM #43
270KIDZ
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Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
no one has even answered my point:
christians willingly worship a god that kills and tortures millions of people, making them just as bad.
elaborate. i dont see god killing or torturing anyone.
(you whine when no one responds to your point but you have yet to really make one)
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:29 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
What do you want me to say "Oh, I am in stage 5 right now so really my logic is automatically flawed and I should just go be a Christian now."
Of course not. Don't be silly.

Quote:
no one has even answered my point:
christians willingly worship a god that kills and tortures millions of people, making them just as bad.
You're not looking at it from both sides. You're only seeing it as a "us vs them", so you can't see a "good" Christian God. You've convinced yourself that's the only way to interpret it. I could try to convince you otherwise, that you're starting with an inaccurate premise, but you'll just dismiss any arguments that go against your current preconceived notions. So I'm not going to bother. The only two choices you're allowing yourself is "God bad, don't believe at all", or "God good, hand me a Bible to thump". What about all the possibilities in between?
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:49 PM #45
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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post

You're not looking at it from both sides. You're only seeing it as a "us vs them", so you can't see a "good" Christian God. You've convinced yourself that's the only way to interpret it. I could try to convince you otherwise, that you're starting with an inaccurate premise, but you'll just dismiss any arguments that go against your current preconceived notions. So I'm not going to bother. The only two choices you're allowing yourself is "God bad, don't believe at all", or "God good, hand me a Bible to thump". What about all the possibilities in between?
1. If you are speaking of my conviction that the Bible must be interpreted from a literal sense and only a literal sense, then I don't see how you would do otherwise. You have no basis in believing parts of the Bible and not believing some parts of the Bible if you claim to be a Christian. If the Bible is up to interpretation, then the Bible is anything you want it to be.

2. You haven't even tried to argue with me. You are already making an assumption. Through my history, which is given, you should know that I am a man who sides with logic. I don't choose the consequences of logic, I just follow the path it takes. Please, correct me. I am begging to be corrected. I don't care for conclusions. I want to know the JUSTIFIABLE side and if I am siding with a completely unreasonable side, then please, save me. I will always choose the side which is most justified and based on my knowledge and experience, my views seem to be right.

Please, tell me I am wrong and show me how I am wrong so that I can no longer be a slave to phony logic.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:07 AM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
1. If you are speaking of my conviction that the Bible must be interpreted from a literal sense and only a literal sense, then I don't see how you would do otherwise. You have no basis in believing parts of the Bible and not believing some parts of the Bible if you claim to be a Christian. If the Bible is up to interpretation, then the Bible is anything you want it to be.
Who said anything about claiming to be just "Christian"? I'm an Agnostic Theist Catholic Evolutionist (stating general philosophy, stance on presence of a higher power, preference in ceremony, and stance on species development)...with a few other -ists and -isms in there.

The Bible IS anything you want it to be. To some an inspiration for good, for others a reason to hate. To some a stepping stone into a bigger world, for others a limiting force that holds them to a narrow view. Some see redemption, while others find a reason to condemn others.

God is more, so much more than just the Bible. My biggest complaint is that they stopped writing the darn thing. If I was running things you could go to church a hear a reading from profit Darwin.

Quote:
2. You haven't even tried to argue with me.
Why would I want to argue with you?
You assume I'm trying to change your mind. Can't be done, so I'm trying to open it up a bit to more possibilities.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:15 AM #47
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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Who said anything about claiming to be just "Christian"? I'm an Agnostic Theist Catholic Evolutionist (stating general philosophy, stance on presence of a higher power, preference in ceremony, and stance on species development)...with a few other -ists and -isms in there.

The Bible IS anything you want it to be. To some an inspiration for good, for others a reason to hate. To some a stepping stone into a bigger world, for others a limiting force that holds them to a narrow view. Some see redemption, while others find a reason to condemn others.

God is more, so much more than just the Bible. My biggest complaint is that they stopped writing the darn thing. If I was running things you could go to church a hear a reading from profit Darwin.



Why would I want to argue with you?
You assume I'm trying to change your mind. Can't be done, so I'm trying to open it up a bit to more possibilities.
i feel like you don't understand anything i am saying. not saying it's your fault, i am just saying i don't think you understand me
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:24 AM #48
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Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
i feel like you don't understand anything i am saying. not saying it's your fault, i am just saying i don't think you understand me
I understand you. You're looking for absolutes. You only want the "right" answer. Problem is reality isn't a binary function. The universe isn't black or white, but a infinite number of shades in between. When you set the premise so that the only available answer is black or white, it's impossible to argue that the correct answer is purple with out first deconstructing the premise.

Who the heck has time for that?
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:43 AM #49
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I understand you. You're looking for absolutes. You only want the "right" answer. Problem is reality isn't a binary function. The universe isn't black or white, but a infinite number of shades in between. When you set the premise so that the only available answer is black or white, it's impossible to argue that the correct answer is purple with out first deconstructing the premise.

Who the heck has time for that?
anything besides black and white is subjective. and if the subjective is an objective answer, then surely the purple can be defined by black and white.

i would definitely agree there is no black and white answer. that is my point. christianity is a black and a white answer. i am trying to tell christians they are idiots for believing what they believe.


i am okay with logic not pointing to an answer, i just use logic to destroy anything that is considered to be an answer
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:49 AM #50
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You clearly don't even have a basic understanding of the Christian faith.
The notion that God does not send but that one sends himself is not a "Christian" notion but a notion of only a subsect of the Christian faith.

Besides, it's as trivial a refutation of the question as saying "teachers don't give you grades, you earn them." Well, yes you do earn grades, but teachers also must give you the grade. You don't give yourself the grade or else you would choose the best grade possible. Likewise, God must send people to Hell against their will for nobody would willfully go to Hell.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:59 AM #51
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The notion that God does not send but that one sends himself is not a "Christian" notion but a notion of only a subsect of the Christian faith.

Besides, it's as trivial a refutation of the question as saying "teachers don't give you grades, you earn them." Well, yes you do earn grades, but teachers also must give you the grade. You don't give yourself the grade or else you would choose the best grade possible. Likewise, God must send people to Hell against their will for nobody would willfully go to Hell.
you're a clear headed individual. i enjoy your posts.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:04 AM #52
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im not even going to waste my time reading through this whole thing, but christians are just a compiliation of all the other religions at the timer of emperor Constantine in Rome. He formed the Nice council and forced all the existing religions to form a common religion becuase of the very bloody religious conflict going on at that time. catholic means "UNIVERSAL" in latin. DUHHHHHHH

UNDER THE PENALTY OF DEATH, you had to convert and never speak the name of the "god" you were really worshiping with the holidays and customs.

Also, this is when he changed the day of worship from SATURDAY TO SUNDAY under penalty of death as well.. So the christians just stole their customs from all the other religions to stop violence and to make people already participating in the holiday really worship "their religion"

so in reality jewish people who celebrate on saturday are right and christians are wrong. and the GOD isnt a name for the creator, its a general name, who really is an insult to our elhoim.

his true name is YAHWEH!

and i know this thread is getting flamed now, but theres my 2 cents. i read the bible like anyone else but christianity changed after jesus died, and the christians from then on have been corupt ignorant fools.

oh and lastly, christians really means gathering idiots!
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:10 AM #53
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Likewise, God must send people to Hell against their will for nobody would willfully go to Hell.
you know that satan is really just the physical imagined manifestation of evil ion the world.

also, anything that distracts from the absolut truth and strays anyone from the true path should be deemed "Ha Shatan" as is the first name of "him"



also, in the bible it never says there is a heaven or hell, only that there are heavens above, which is a direct mistranslation from the greek word for sky. the bible has been re-written multiple times by different people with different languages.


lastly, JESUS DIED TO ABSOLVE ALL OF OUR SINS! it says so in the bible, it is the sign of the everlasting covenant between people and YAHWEH. He died to make sure that we wouldnt go to "hell." it was more to stop us from ritual animal sacrifice to attone for sinning, when we were really just not suppossed to sin at all.

ps. Do you follow the 10 commandments? I dont think so. The christian church has also changed the original commandments to fit their agenda, so i wouldnt even open your mouths saying you know the truth if you dont even follow the true 10 commandments
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:22 AM #54
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ps. Do you follow the 10 commandments? I dont think so. The christian church has also changed the original commandments to fit their agenda, so i wouldnt even open your mouths saying you know the truth if you dont even follow the true 10 commandments
1. Why would you open our mouths in the first place?

2. I took a Jewish Religion course once and we studied the interaction between Moses and God at Mt. Sinai as described by the Torah. So I am fairly confident in my understanding of the "true 10 commandments."

3. If you were speaking to me (you had me quoted), you should know that I do not consider myself a Christian but consider myself to be religiously agnostic and am undecided on many things.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:30 AM #55
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1. Why would you open our mouths in the first place?

2. I took a Jewish Religion course once and we studied the interaction between Moses and God at Mt. Sinai as described by the Torah. So I am fairly confident in my understanding of the "true 10 commandments."

3. If you were speaking to me (you had me quoted), you should know that I do not consider myself a Christian but consider myself to be religiously agnostic and am undecided on many things.
1. haha im saying as in I myself would not have opened my own mouth

2. for sure, and i am in noubt of your knowledge

3. i actually wasnt meaning any of this in general to you, i went back and read most of your posts and i lovebasically everything you have to say! you're the kind of people i wished inhabited most of the world haha


lastly, like i said, what i said was mostly just for the general purpose of ranting in a religious thread haha

i just saw some of the posts and thought i should put in my intensely typed 2 cents.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:33 AM #56
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you know that satan is really just the physical imagined manifestation of evil ion the world.

also, anything that distracts from the absolut truth and strays anyone from the true path should be deemed "Ha Shatan" as is the first name of "him"



also, in the bible it never says there is a heaven or hell, only that there are heavens above, which is a direct mistranslation from the greek word for sky. the bible has been re-written multiple times by different people with different languages.


lastly, JESUS DIED TO ABSOLVE ALL OF OUR SINS! it says so in the bible, it is the sign of the everlasting covenant between people and YAHWEH. He died to make sure that we wouldnt go to "hell." it was more to stop us from ritual animal sacrifice to attone for sinning, when we were really just not suppossed to sin at all.

ps. Do you follow the 10 commandments? I dont think so. The christian church has also changed the original commandments to fit their agenda, so i wouldnt even open your mouths saying you know the truth if you dont even follow the true 10 commandments
quoting on heaven and hell;
hell is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is called the "lake of fire", which as many people call it, "hell"
for instance Rev. 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever."

and speaking of Heaven,

"The House of the Lord" refering to heaven is mentioned, for instance
Psalm 23:6
"Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever."

also John 14:1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

just to clear that up for you sir.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:35 AM #57
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also crede777, how did the discusion about the burning bush go about?

many people have theoir own thoughts, and im not sure if anyone else believes as i do, but that Moses really spoke to yahweh through cannabis, "the burning bush" of the time.

although with divine power entered into the equation, anything would be possible to have been done by the creator, so the literal burning bush isnt far from theory.

but because i am a twist on the jewish faith, actually believing in jesus, called the nazarene, Im also Rastafarian.

this is because of the connection of Halie Salesie 1st to King David, who jesus also decended from, and their belief is that cannabis brings you closer to the mind of god, releasing all inhibitions and mental walls built up by the human psyche
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:41 AM #58
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quoting on heaven and hell;
hell is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is called the "lake of fire", which as many people call it, "hell"
for instance Rev. 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever."

and speaking of Heaven,

"The House of the Lord" refering to heaven is mentioned, for instance
Psalm 23:6
"Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever."

also John 14:1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

just to clear that up for you sir.

not that i am saying that we will never be resureccted and join yahweh in his everlasting kingdom, but i interpret that not as a literal heaven, and not that we die then go to heaven, but that our souls lie dormant until the rapture, where we will join Yahweh and become the entitiy he is.

im not sure if you have seen "ghost in the shell" the anime, but it is similiar to that. We will die and become a soul, which keeps all the information and feelings from life, but become part of the entire whole that yahweh is



and yes, it does mean that some people will not go to "heaven" and they will stay and witness the destruction of the earth. I believe that is what is discussed with the lake of fire references


oh and i only read and belive in the old testament. there is a reason the jewish, christian and muslim religion read the old testament, and only christians read the new testament,

but, the quote for hell you provided,

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever."

is only talking about the devil that is the evil of the world and the "anti-christ" will be thrown into the lake of fire.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:26 PM #59
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also crede777, how did the discusion about the burning bush go about?
Well, we analyzed the text on numerous levels. There are 4 basic levels to Torah interpretation. Supposedly there are many more, but they're pretty far-out. There was literal (Peshat), allegorical (Remez), metaphorical (Derash), and "hidden" (Sod). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_study

Literal could be taken to mean that he spoke to a bush which was on fire and the bush spoke back to him. However, it is unclear in the Hebrew language what exact type of bush it was and the state the bush was in. It's generally assumed to be some type of shrub which was actually on fire, but "bush," "on fire," etc. all could have different meanings than what we think of immediately when we think of a bush being on fire. It very well could be that he was smoking pot and that's what the original authors were trying to convey but that it has since been read differently.

The fact that there are at least 3 other levels other than the literal level to the text mean that the message could have been almost anything. I don't remember what exactly we said about the bush and Moses, though. It also should be noted that my professor was 100% bat**** crazy and swore that God spoke to her on a daily basis (maybe He did, who knows).
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:25 PM #60
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has gotten so off topic just delete the damn thing
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:50 PM #61
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I am thinking; that a study of roman taxation for the times under augustus would give you an idea of when the historical Jesus of Nazareth was born. You can cross reference the lineage of the Christ from David to see how it lined up.
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Old 04-14-2010, 06:33 AM #62
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that doesn't mean anything. you are using an example of something that happened prior to this, in which you think i am wrong, to say that everything else that comes out of my mouth about the subject is wrong. THAT'S WRONG.

Listen, I don't expect anyone over the age of 30 to truly understand anything I have said. the reason for this is because by the time someone is around 30, their religion has become such a part of them that it is almost nearly impossible for a person to see the world a different way. you spend 30 years looking at the world one way, it would take some massive thinking and experience to change that frame. it would also be incredibly depressing for a person to lose their frame of reality at such an age - this is why i do not talk religious philosophy with my parents. to break down someone's reality is really not a great thing.

do you get what i am saying? by the time you are around age 30 your religion is a part of you and to say it is wrong means losing your identity.

and really, i don't want anyone to feel bad. i just feel such an urgency for people to know truth.

the problem is, no one older can look at any philosophy with an open eye. it's like criticizing someone's family to their face, they will say anything to protect them at any cost. it is the same with religion.

i've been a christian and i have been a christian on here. the fact of the matter is that arguments for christianity or for any specific religion don't hold up and i found this out a young age, which at that age i did not have an identity for myself. if i had never questioned anything, i would still most definitely be a christian and by the time i was 30 i wouldn't be able to see it any other way.

And i am not saying by any means that i think i am wrong. all i have done is followed a path of logic before i have gotten to the conclusion - i never picked my conclusion then found the logic that supported it. i don't understand how you can worship a god which gives people horrendous pain and i don't see how you think that is a great thing. the fact that you go around preaching this and the fact that you can't listen to anything else makes me horribly depressed. you think i kid.

p.s. you never responded to 1., your response was not legitimate. i want you to acknowledge the fact that you worship something that delivers pain and torture unimaginable.
1) no I don't agree with this. making a universal statement about someone's state of mind post-30 isn't"logic", it's just bias.

2) I don't believe God sends anyone to "Hell" or "delivers pain and torture" to anyone who hasn't seen him face to face, seen "his enemy", and chosen against him. And even then he waits until the last possible moment, pleading with them to change their mind. In Christianity, we are promised that "one day we will see face-to-face". Until then, eschatology is all conjecture and feel-good crap anyways. I can't imagine a God who doesn't give us all the facts before having us decide.

Does this mean I think if God exists, it's the Christian God? Yes, I still believe that based on other experiences and study. But I don't believe there's some moral imperative to be Christian, or that said God "punishes" anyone for not being Christian. I believe He *wants* us to follow Jesus and be in relationship with him. But it isn't an imperative to be a good person or to understand and experience him after this life, or even in this life.
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:13 AM #63
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1) no I don't agree with this. making a universal statement about someone's state of mind post-30 isn't"logic", it's just bias.

2) I don't believe God sends anyone to "Hell" or "delivers pain and torture" to anyone who hasn't seen him face to face, seen "his enemy", and chosen against him. And even then he waits until the last possible moment, pleading with them to change their mind. In Christianity, we are promised that "one day we will see face-to-face". Until then, eschatology is all conjecture and feel-good crap anyways. I can't imagine a God who doesn't give us all the facts before having us decide.

Does this mean I think if God exists, it's the Christian God? Yes, I still believe that based on other experiences and study. But I don't believe there's some moral imperative to be Christian, or that said God "punishes" anyone for not being Christian. I believe He *wants* us to follow Jesus and be in relationship with him. But it isn't an imperative to be a good person or to understand and experience him after this life, or even in this life.
1. it's not suppose to be an absolutist argument. i am just saying i could understand why. I mean c'mon, that is such a no bull****-theory. it's not suppose to say everyone post-30 is like that, but there are a large group of people that are. I mean sociology and psychology aren't absolutist studies.

I don't know if I am using absolutist right. well i guess i am if you know what i am saying

Everything belows applies to 2:

1. We both say "what the ****" to a god that enjoys torture. we also both decide to not agree with that idea

2. After 1, we both make decisions. You continue to be a Christian, I don't

3. I don't continue to be a Christian because if I am going to just pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe, why do i even bother continuing to be a Christian. I mean, from step one, i don't even agree with their idea of God. And I also don't want to support a church that worships that specific idea of god (which is irrelevant, but a good point). Sure you can be follower of Jesus, but still, why would you just believe in that part of the Bible and not the others? And why only a follower of Jesus?

4. And I don't understand this whole Christian idea of being in a relationship with God. Uh...yeah. I don't even see where that comes from, why there is even an earth if that is the case, how people are actually having a relationship with god. it just seems like something made up to deny what the Bible really says. As far as my going to church every sunday for 16 years and my six years of religious schooling, and that one year in fourth grade where I started a bible study called "safari bible", that is just a ****ing cutoff of the BIble.

I think it more to be a book on:
1. Don't **** with God, look how he has ****ed up all these people. Just don't **** with him
2. Here is Jesus, follow him
3. If you follow Jesus, God won't **** with you.

In my experience I have never seen anything in the Bible which states that the human purpose is to "have a relationship with God." There are so many stupid things wrong with that. I mean if that is the case, what is the problem of us inherently knowing that. I mean, do you honestly have conversations with God. You just said that "if god exists.." i mean, you are an active Christian (i think) who believes the purpose of life is to have a relationship with god but you can't even tell me if god exists. holy **** dude, i mean c'mon

Edit: what i just wrote is very sloppy, i am missing a lot of things, not emphasizing my points, but i think you have been on here long enough to be able to interpret my ****ty stuff.

P.S. if I come off as an *******, it's merely the problem of text. i am not yelling at my computer, its more of a soft-trying to understand-tone. maybe i should put this above..
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Last edited by Laureate : 04-14-2010 at 10:16 AM.
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