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Old 04-12-2010, 01:26 PM #22
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Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
You read it?

Changes what idea?
are you a calvinist?
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:28 PM #23
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That doesn't answer either question.
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:47 PM #24
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That doesn't answer either question.
yes i read it. and it doesn't change the fact that i think people have this overwhelming idea of significance and self control.
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:55 PM #25
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Laureate is saying that God caring what humans do is akin to me caring about what some pitiful little ant does beneath me. Only on an infinitely greater scale.

The answer many Christians would give, I think, is that God is also omnibenevolent. He loves all and cares most about His creation. However, that then leads me to wonder why He would punish someone by sending that person to Hell for eternity for none of the living would know about it and the one being punished is unable to repent (or learn from his mistakes).

Then again, God also admits to being selfish which would be a flaw in a supposedly perfect being.
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:59 PM #26
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Laureate is saying that God caring what humans do is akin to me caring about what some pitiful little ant does beneath me. Only on an infinitely greater scale.

The answer many Christians would give, I think, is that God is also omnibenevolent. He loves all and cares most about His creation. However, that then leads me to wonder why He would punish someone by sending that person to Hell for eternity for none of the living would know about it and the one being punished is unable to repent (or learn from his mistakes).

Then again, God also admits to being selfish which would be a flaw in a supposedly perfect being.
There are so many problems with religion. I mean, I can go on forever but typing over the internet is just a huge battle of semantics.

Ultimately, what it comes down to for me, is given the Bible, I think God is a ****ing *******. So if there is a God, and He is actually omni-benevolent, He would give me some benefit of the doubt for not worshiping some ridiculous depiction of Him which makes Him out to be infinitely worse than Hitler.

I mean honestly, Christians think they are great people. Really they are just a group of people with Stockholm Syndrome. YOU WORSHIP A THING THAT SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL FOR THINGS IT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR AND FOR SOME REASON YOU THINK THAT IS REWARDABLE.

give me a ****ing break.

I'm sorry, I am honestly going insane.
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:40 PM #27
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
Laureate is saying that God caring what humans do is akin to me caring about what some pitiful little ant does beneath me. Only on an infinitely greater scale.

The answer many Christians would give, I think, is that God is also omnibenevolent. He loves all and cares most about His creation. However, that then leads me to wonder why He would punish someone by sending that person to Hell for eternity for none of the living would know about it and the one being punished is unable to repent (or learn from his mistakes).

Then again, God also admits to being selfish which would be a flaw in a supposedly perfect being.
I'm pretty sure I understand what Laureate was saying, and thank you for helping clear it up (honest, I'm not try to be facetious ) But for the record I didn't say he was wrong, what I said was what he was saying was full of dumb/untruthful. There is a difference. The assumption I read in his post was that God cared more about what the Christian was doing rather than the Christian himself.

Question - Why would God care about "what" the Christian is doing? (let's keep in mind that the post he was referring to was a post by a Christian and about his desire to regain self control over "what" he perceived as sinful)

Answer - Because sin separates man from God. The actual sin is not the issue, what is the issue is the separation. The Christian believes that God hates that separation so much so that He sent His Son to die to "bridge that gap". So yes God does care what the Christian does, according to Christianity, but not necessarily in the way he, Laureate, was alluding to. A simple understanding of this is found in the Bible and for the most part is taught clearly, if one bothered to try to understand.

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YOU WORSHIP A THING THAT SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL FOR THINGS IT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR AND FOR SOME REASON YOU THINK THAT IS REWARDABLE.
What possible "reward" could a person give to a God?
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:04 PM #28
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What possible "reward" could a person give to a God?
you misread it. you think that you are rewarded for worshiping something worse than hitler.
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:09 PM #29
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First) reward - ...? Just doing what I was created to do. Why would I be rewarded?

Second) I'm curious to know where this idea of worse comes from.

If there is no wrong/right and all is relative......
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:11 PM #30
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Me and Gold talked and I get how he see's humor in my post. Pretty much I didn't just stop my addiction for God, but to stop what I felt was wrong in my life. It is a lot deeper then just "slapping my meat around a couple times a week"
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:48 PM #31
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well, considering it's freezing cold in December in the area, I doubt the shepherds were in the field then. Not to mention the 70 miles trip for Mary to Bethlehem while 9 months preggo. So it's pretty unlikely that he was born anywhere near the depths of winter. But as far as proof of an exact date, well that's a lot harder since there really isn't any. Sometime between spring and fall makes the most sense, but that leaves a lot of variation.
The average high in December is 57 degrees.
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:48 PM #32
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First) reward - ...? Just doing what I was created to do. Why would I be rewarded?

Second) I'm curious to know where this idea of worse comes from.

If there is no wrong/right and all is relative......
1. no, you worship something that sends people to hell for things it is responsible for. even if you do believe you were created to worship this piece of ****, you are still a jackass because you are taking a part in it. you don't HAVE to worship this pig. don't be a damn drone. (assuming that this thing even exists in the first place. i mean, do you really think infinite benevolence, power and knowledge equals bringing people to life to be tortured for an infinite amount of time? i think that is a stupid idea)

And i mean, seriously "just doing waht I was created to do" is such a bad argument. you are not even denying that your god is a **** head, you are just saying you are helpless to your intended purpose. you're like an 18 year old german circa 1940

2. are you serious? dude that is so far off topic i can't begin...and you are also suggesting that I don't believe in a right or wrong. I don't even understand how you got to that idea...what makes you even think i think that?...that is completely out of the argument...i mean...wtf...let's just forget you said that.
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:04 PM #33
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1. no, you worship something that sends people to hell for things it is responsible for. even if you do believe you were created to worship this piece of ****, you are still a jackass because you are taking a part in it. you don't HAVE to worship this pig. don't be a damn drone. (assuming that this thing even exists in the first place. i mean, do you really think infinite benevolence, power and knowledge equals bringing people to life to be tortured for an infinite amount of time? i think that is a stupid idea)

And i mean, seriously "just doing what I was created to do" is such a bad argument. you are not even denying that your god is a **** head, you are just saying you are helpless to your intended purpose. you're like an 18 year old german circa 1940

2. are you serious? dude that is so far off topic i can't begin...and you are also suggesting that I don't believe in a right or wrong. I don't even understand how you got to that idea...what makes you even think i think that?...that is completely out of the argument...i mean...wtf...let's just forget you said that.
1.) Whatever. I see since your insight into the previous idea about sin and why the christian would be concerned about it was so spot on, you certainly must have the rest of it figured out as well.

2.) you're right my bad.
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:21 PM #34
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1.) Whatever. I see since your insight into the previous idea about sin and why the christian would be concerned about it was so spot on, you certainly must have the rest of it figured out as well.
that doesn't mean anything. you are using an example of something that happened prior to this, in which you think i am wrong, to say that everything else that comes out of my mouth about the subject is wrong. THAT'S WRONG.

Listen, I don't expect anyone over the age of 30 to truly understand anything I have said. the reason for this is because by the time someone is around 30, their religion has become such a part of them that it is almost nearly impossible for a person to see the world a different way. you spend 30 years looking at the world one way, it would take some massive thinking and experience to change that frame. it would also be incredibly depressing for a person to lose their frame of reality at such an age - this is why i do not talk religious philosophy with my parents. to break down someone's reality is really not a great thing.

do you get what i am saying? by the time you are around age 30 your religion is a part of you and to say it is wrong means losing your identity.

and really, i don't want anyone to feel bad. i just feel such an urgency for people to know truth.

the problem is, no one older can look at any philosophy with an open eye. it's like criticizing someone's family to their face, they will say anything to protect them at any cost. it is the same with religion.

i've been a christian and i have been a christian on here. the fact of the matter is that arguments for christianity or for any specific religion don't hold up and i found this out a young age, which at that age i did not have an identity for myself. if i had never questioned anything, i would still most definitely be a christian and by the time i was 30 i wouldn't be able to see it any other way.

And i am not saying by any means that i think i am wrong. all i have done is followed a path of logic before i have gotten to the conclusion - i never picked my conclusion then found the logic that supported it. i don't understand how you can worship a god which gives people horrendous pain and i don't see how you think that is a great thing. the fact that you go around preaching this and the fact that you can't listen to anything else makes me horribly depressed. you think i kid.

p.s. you never responded to 1., your response was not legitimate. i want you to acknowledge the fact that you worship something that delivers pain and torture unimaginable.
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:05 PM #35
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Listen, I don't expect anyone over the age of 30 to truly understand anything I have said. the reason for this is because by the time someone is around 30, their religion has become such a part of them that it is almost nearly impossible for a person to see the world a different way. you spend 30 years looking at the world one way, it would take some massive thinking and experience to change that frame. it would also be incredibly depressing for a person to lose their frame of reality at such an age - this is why i do not talk religious philosophy with my parents. to break down someone's reality is really not a great thing.

do you get what i am saying? by the time you are around age 30 your religion is a part of you and to say it is wrong means losing your identity.

and really, i don't want anyone to feel bad. i just feel such an urgency for people to know truth.

the problem is, no one older can look at any philosophy with an open eye. it's like criticizing someone's family to their face, they will say anything to protect them at any cost. it is the same with religion.

i've been a christian and i have been a christian on here. the fact of the matter is that arguments for christianity or for any specific religion don't hold up and i found this out a young age, which at that age i did not have an identity for myself. if i had never questioned anything, i would still most definitely be a christian and by the time i was 30 i wouldn't be able to see it any other way.

And i am not saying by any means that i think i am wrong. all i have done is followed a path of logic before i have gotten to the conclusion - i never picked my conclusion then found the logic that supported it. i don't understand how you can worship a god which gives people horrendous pain and i don't see how you think that is a great thing. the fact that you go around preaching this and the fact that you can't listen to anything else makes me horribly depressed. you think i kid.
Listen, I don't expect anyone under the age of 30 to truly understand anything I have said. The reason for this is because they really haven't had any experience with life. Their life has been nothing but being told what is right and what is wrong and given the freedom they now experience in their lives they have a hard time coming to grips with their new found freedom and sometimes believe that this should have been the way all along . It can be incredibly disturbing and unsettling for a person to lose their frame of reality at such an age. The break down someone's reality is really not a great thing.

I've been a christian and I have been a christian on here. The fact of the matter is that arguments against Christianity don't hold up and I found this out a young age, which at that age I did not have an identity for myself. So I continued to challenge my beliefs and ideas not only of Christianity but the world and have processed and grown from that. If I had never questioned anything, I don't know that I would be a christian and by the time I was 30 I wouldn't be able to say what I believed with any real conviction.

And I am not saying by any means that I think you are wrong to question Christianity. All you can do is followed a path of logic before you have gotten to a conclusion - for myself what can I say, I see the wind blow and I need to understand why it does. I don't understand how you can think you fully understand the world and you unwillingness listen to anything else makes me horribly depressed. You think I kid.

Do you get what I am saying? By the time you are around age 30 you have lived enough life to start to develop an identity and begin to be certain of things you have grown to understand.

And really, I don't want anyone to feel bad. I just feel such an urgency for people to know truth.

The problem is, very few younger people can really look at any philosophy with an open eye. They just haven't lived enough life on their own to really understand who they are and how they relate to the world.


*** I suppose we both have concerns, don't we?
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:10 PM #36
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I don't see how experience is going to change the logic.
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:18 PM #37
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Quote:
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I don't see how experience is going to change the logic.
You're still in the "shout it from the rooftop" stage of your spiritual development. Seen it a million times.

Usually breaks down like this...

You start off a blank slate, stage 1.

Stage 2, data sponge. You absorb everything put in front of you. Usually happens in early childhood.

At stage 3, processing and basic questioning, you start to ask questions about what you've absorbed. The child who keeps asking "why?" The answers you receive effect the next stage. You'll generally parrot the data fed to you at this time.

Stage 4, initial conclusion and filtering. You take the data from your asked questions and make up your mind. You start to ask questions that reinforce your conclusion (usually with out consciously knowing you are doing it).

Stage 5, data lock and share. Also known as "I FIGURED IT OUT! LISTEN TO ME!" You've stopped seeking new data input, and have begun to output. This stage is shown in the religious zealot feeling the need to "save" everyone, the atheist needing others to "open their eyes", the hard agnostic screaming "you don't know". You're right, they're wrong, simple as that. You seem to be currently in this stage. Often happens in the teens to early twenties, but can happen much later and last a very long time. I'd say a rather large percentage of regular posters in this sub-forum are in some part of this stage.

Stage 6, data leak and doubt. At this stage answers to questions you didn't ask start to seep into your thought processes. Things that seemed so sure not too long ago now start to seem uncertain. Unlike stage 3 this stage sneaks up on you. Often called a "crisis of faith", or an "awakening", depending on the outcome. Since you can't see how experience can change things you haven't quite reached this stage yet. Those who have understand how experience changes everything.

Stage 7, reversal/reinforcement/adaptation. You either change, strengthen, or adapt your initial conclusion from the new unasked for data. Now if you do a full reversal or strengthen your initial conclusion you often snap back to stage 4 or 5. Not always though. If you're lucky...

Stage 8, understanding. You know what you know now, but accept that what you know later may be different. You also fully understand that others may be of a completely opposite opinion, and still be correct. Very few make it to this stage (almost zero politicians), and even then it tends to loop back to stage 6.
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:46 PM #38
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very cool, but that doesn't change anything i am saying.
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:26 PM #39
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you worship something that sends people to hell for things it is responsible for.
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YOU WORSHIP A THING THAT SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL FOR THINGS IT IS RESPONSIBLE
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However, that then leads me to wonder why He would punish someone by sending that person to Hell for eternity
You clearly don't even have a basic understanding of the Christian faith.
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:48 PM #40
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You clearly don't even have a basic understanding of the Christian faith.
that statement means nothing. if you are going to say anything worthwhile, give an argument.
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:53 PM #41
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And now we have two diametrically opposed Stage 5's in opposition. Neither will allow new input, so all they can do is aim their output at each other.
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:46 PM #42
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And now we have two diametrically opposed Stage 5's in opposition. Neither will allow new input, so all they can do is aim their output at each other.
I don't understand how what state of life I am in affects the arguments I am making. I mean, I understand how when I move on later in life I might like at my arguments differently. Yeah, I mean, that is 110% agreeable. I just don't understand how it affects my logic.

You are essentially mocking me right now. You are beating way around the bush to try and disassemble my arguments without even arguing.

What do you want me to say "Oh, I am in stage 5 right now so really my logic is automatically flawed and I should just go be a Christian now."

no one has even answered my point:
christians willingly worship a god that kills and tortures millions of people, making them just as bad.
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