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Old 04-13-2010, 07:58 PM #22
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I always find it so funny to see how much "christians" hate Roman Catholics.

Every time my mom gives me a hard time about not taking the kids to church I tell her that I'll go Catholic if she brings it up again. I swear she'd rather me go radical islam than Catholic.

You're all basically on the same team. It's silly to waste your time fretting about the details... leave that to the conservative group that wants to take all the liberal parts out of the bible.

http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:06 PM #23
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by the "what you do" comment, i mean that christian faith should be deeper than going to church/mass on sundays, being involved in a community, reading the bible, etc... otherwise, it's just doing stuff to try to be good enough for god, which completely defies christ and rejects one of christianity's foundational principles.

that tends to be the major criticism of catholics by protestants, that catholics are all about salvation by works, not by grace. that's not really accurate, but catholics do emphasize works, sometimes to the point where the idea of grace gets lost. much like many protestant churches emphasize grace and lose the idea of good works.

"Any justification that is not woven together with sanctification is no justification at all." http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

i see nothing wrong with the catholic view of justification and sanctification except practical emphasis. interestingly, the "don't smoke, don't drink, don't curse" churches of the bible belt teach, in practice, the exact same thing they so often accuse the catholics of teaching.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:03 PM #24
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by the "what you do" comment, i mean that christian faith should be deeper than going to church/mass on sundays, being involved in a community, reading the bible, etc... otherwise, it's just doing stuff to try to be good enough for god, which completely defies christ and rejects one of christianity's foundational principles.
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that tends to be the major criticism of catholics by protestants, that catholics are all about salvation by works, not by grace. that's not really accurate, but catholics do emphasize works, sometimes to the point where the idea of grace gets lost. much like many protestant churches emphasize grace and lose the idea of good works.
I guess? So all the things mentioned above are against christianity's foundational principals? I mean all critisism aside, even the christian group that i'm trying to avoid do all of those things...isn't it a safe bet to say that the majority of 'christian denominations' are for all of the above mentioned?
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:06 PM #25
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Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post
I always find it so funny to see how much "christians" hate Roman Catholics.

Every time my mom gives me a hard time about not taking the kids to church I tell her that I'll go Catholic if she brings it up again. I swear she'd rather me go radical islam than Catholic.

You're all basically on the same team. It's silly to waste your time fretting about the details... leave that to the conservative group that wants to take all the liberal parts out of the bible.

http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
Thats it. Thank you.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:45 PM #26
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[b]

I guess? So all the things mentioned above are against christianity's foundational principals? I mean all critisism aside, even the christian group that i'm trying to avoid do all of those things...isn't it a safe bet to say that the majority of 'christian denominations' are for all of the above mentioned?
no, it's the idea that we can do things to save ourselves that is against christian teaching. doing all of those things is well and good, but doing those things does nothing to save us from sin in the first place.

we live a christian life because we are saved. we are not saved because we live a christian life.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:34 AM #27
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When are we saved?
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:34 AM #28
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we live a christian life because we are saved. we are not saved because we live a christian life.
So... you're a Calvinist?

Because Roman Catholicism definitely believes that actions can save someone. It used to be that one could pay indulgences. Despite indulgences going out of style, the principle behind it hasn't changed as radically as to suggest predeterminism.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:58 AM #29
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we live a christian life because we are saved. we are not saved because we live a christian life.
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So... you're a Calvinist?
I think you interpreted that wrong.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:09 AM #30
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I would simply respond that everyone can read their bible as they want to and politely tell your co-worker that your way of reading yours is your own and not any more wrong than his/her way of reading his/her bible.

As an atheist your whole story represents the close mindedness of certain religious people, but I don't feel the problem is your faith as it is rather than your co-workers attitude towards other people.
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:03 AM #31
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So... you're a Calvinist?

Because Roman Catholicism definitely believes that actions can save someone. It used to be that one could pay indulgences. Despite indulgences going out of style, the principle behind it hasn't changed as radically as to suggest predeterminism.
no he's saying that belief in Jesus should lead you to live a certain way, but people can be good people without believing in Jesus.
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:36 PM #32
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I would simply respond that everyone can read their bible as they want to and politely tell your co-worker that your way of reading yours is your own and not any more wrong than his/her way of reading his/her bible.

As an atheist your whole story represents the close mindedness of certain religious people, but I don't feel the problem is your faith as it is rather than your co-workers attitude towards other people.
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Old 04-14-2010, 06:38 PM #33
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When are we saved?
i would hope you know the answer to that... otherwise, i may need to reevaluate my view of the catholic church...

theologically, i have no issue with the catholic stance on justification and sanctification. but if practical emphasis is so far off that you have never heard the answer to that question, something is seriously wrong...
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:34 PM #34
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i would hope you know the answer to that... otherwise, i may need to reevaluate my view of the catholic church...
It's really a matter of terminology. The term "saved" just isn't tossed around much in Catholic services, except when present in scripture (where "salvation" tends to pop up more commonly if I remember correctly). The concept is present, most assuredly, it just isn't used as an adjective all that much.

Sort of like that whole "finding Jesus" thing a lot of Protestants go on and on about. Catholics wonder "Wait, what? When did we lose Him? Or are you talking about Luke 2:46-47?" Again the same concept is present, it's just not part of the culture to state it with those particular words.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:29 PM #35
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gotcha
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:57 PM #36
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i would hope you know the answer to that... otherwise, i may need to reevaluate my view of the catholic church...

theologically, i have no issue with the catholic stance on justification and sanctification. but if practical emphasis is so far off that you have never heard the answer to that question, something is seriously wrong...
I do, and I also know what the my co-workers version of 'salvation' is. What is it to you though. When are we saved. At what point. Not putting you on the spot, don't answer if you don't want to.
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Old 04-16-2010, 03:27 AM #37
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my view of salvation?

whether or not a person is saved depends simply on their belief that jesus died and rose to conquer sin, and that because of what jesus did, we are forgiven our sins. pretty much john 3:16...

i don't believe there is always a specific point or momentous personal decision made.
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American evangelicalism has its roots sunk deeply into the ethos of revivalism. It’s about preaching for decision. And it’s the decision that gets it done. In a moment.

In my humble opinion, it is God that “gets it done,” and his ways are not our ways.
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:43 PM #38
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There is good reason why people of different denominations of faith can never agree on anything. I mean to start neither party is exactly starting from a reasonable position, I.E. both use faith to justify there positions. Now if you could come to a common source of information such as the bible, you would then have to create a list of versus to be considered and then agree on which ones are metaphors and which ones are not.

Now, a Protestant might say you need to look at the bible for your own interpretation of it, and a catholic might take the approach of trusting the priests of there local church. I will reserve any judgment on both party's.

Now, assuming both parties could come to the agreement that say the bible is the only text relevant for arguing a religious position and said list of relevant phrases was made, and agreements were made upon which are metaphors or not to be taken literally or not. (Highly Unlikely) then possibly an agreement could be reached.

To come to this agreement would likely compromise one or both of the parties involved faith so when all is said and done they would probably still irrationally disagree with one another and continue with there own faith or B) Develop some new denomination.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:29 PM #39
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you're assuming a difference in belief necessitates a split. so often in american christianity, a difference in belief does result in a split, and i hate it. denominations are completely unbiblical.

a christian is a christian is a christian. so long as a person can hold to a few basic beliefs, i'll worship with them as a brother or sister in christ. everything else is secondary.
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Old 04-17-2010, 07:38 PM #40
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well that's the thing, both parties probably think there faith comes from the bible and will look for evidence in the bible to support it. Most likely calling the other sides views metaphors or not to be taken literally.

The reason they don't compromise is because more often than not they think the other is going to hell and don't want to waver lest they go to hell them self.

Generally speaking mind you, yes there are many people who just go by the bible on a few core beliefs and call it a day.
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Old 04-18-2010, 01:00 AM #41
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The Background: Wife and I are Catholic. We've been married for six years. Before and around the begining of our marriage we were active in our faith: mass every Sunday (or Saturday), participated in the Catholic community, ect. As life happens, we have two very small kids and two careers. As it happens with two small children and careers, we started to attend church less and less, and well not very much anymore. Recently we wanted to reconnect with our faith.

The Situation: About a month ago, it came up with a co-worker that her and her husband do bible lessons together with other couples. I mentioned that my wife and i were wanting to become more active in our catholic faith (attend mass, read/study the bible together ect). I discussed it with my wife and we decided to do some bible studies with with my co-worker and her husband. Our first studies went well. Then one night, we had them over for dinner and to do another bible study. During the course of the study we came to the scripture that talks about being born again through the clensing of water (I don't have my bible with me now, put I'll put up the specific scritpure later). I was asked if I knew what that meant. I said, that as far as I could gather, it was a reference to baptism. I was asked if i had ever been baptized, and I said 'yes, I was baptized when I was a baby.' After mentioning this I could tell there was a slight change in the tone of the conversation. I was told that (this is paraphrased) that in order for me to have been properly baptized, it needs to be done a consious adult and not as a child. I responded by saying that in the Catholic faith we are baptized as childeren/infants, but that we learn about our faith as we go from being children to adults. We go through first communion as children. Then as we become young adults we go through Confirmation, at wich point you either continue in your Catholic faith, or you leave the faith. That seemed to bother my co-worker. In a later conversation, my wife asked what it was about me, that led her to ask us if we wanted to do bible studies together.
She said that mainly it was the fact that we were brought up Catholic, and that she was concerned about our 'lives and doctrine acording to the bible not matching up.' My wife asked what specificaly about the Catholic faith was not living up to the docrtine of the bible. My co-worker responded that she wants us to study the bible more and for us to "figure it out on our own."
That's the problem with most Protestants. They exchange thoughts about Catholics and talk about how they're "Wrong" (let them believe what they want to) and eventually they believe that there is no way Catholics could be true Christians. I mean, completely impossible right? They do all this but never actually look at the religion; never actually bring their questions and complaints to someone who is actually Catholic. I have heard many things in my 17 years and in living in a huge majority Protestant area. Some of it is just nitpicking, some is bigotry, and some just isn't even true. Little is legit or genuine.
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Old 04-18-2010, 01:04 AM #42
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So... you're a Calvinist?

Because Roman Catholicism definitely believes that actions can save someone. It used to be that one could pay indulgences. Despite indulgences going out of style, the principle behind it hasn't changed as radically as to suggest predeterminism.
They also believe, if I remember correctly, that one can lose their salvation through mortal sins. They don't believe in predestination.
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