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Old 04-19-2010, 04:51 PM #64
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Jack you have represented yourself and your company horribly in this thread, in all honesty you are starting to seem like a drug dealer from the movies when they start getting paranoid and think everyone is turning on them.

Now you have claims your gun is more accurate, yet the only proof you provide is a video you shot and claim it was all done in one take, Sorry bud this is the internet and the technology age you need more proof then that for your claims to be true

show me the physics of your bolt design that makes it more "accurate", to me it seems like you are defying physics

Jack please for us customers watch what you say, bashing other companies products only makes yours look worse. I have talked to plenty of people that love the creed so it obviously isn't the piece of crap you like to claim it is, please be more respectful
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:04 PM #65
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Ok, the thread was created because somebody was obviously interested in buying one of the two markers. Which marker takes longer to mill has no relevance to the end user unless it negatively impacts aesthetics, which from what I can tell is not the case with either of these markers.

- Both the ND and the Creed are manufactured locally to the company and not in Taiwan as earlier suggested.

- Both have all the fancy things you'd expect from a marker in it's price range.

- Both are very competitive with companies much larger than their own.

- Both seem to have a loyal fan base and good customer service.

- Both companies believe in their product enough to offer a 'try before you buy' system to get the public to see 'what the fuss is about'.

My suggestion is to do just that, as with most high-end markers alot of the difference between them is personal preference.

I'm not sure when Eric will be doing another 'Try a creed' day but if you can't make it to that most creed owners will be more than happy to let you try one. And Alien have a very good trial system which I would take them up on if I lived in the US.
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Old 04-19-2010, 06:26 PM #66
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Alex ...... Thank you for putting this in prospective.... At least the end users now know the people they are buying from are really behind there product. As for more Demo days I am working on an East Coast day for the Creed but i will respect Jack and not post any more about it in his Forum.
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:32 PM #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobcat_balla08 View Post
Now you have claims your gun is more accurate, yet the only proof you provide is a video you shot and claim it was all done in one take, Sorry bud this is the internet and the technology age you need more proof then that for your claims to be true.
The claim is true or it isn't true. Proving or not proving is subjective. As to the "one take" look at the front board - it is slightly orange from washing off the paint. The back board is obviously new. I said it was done in one take and it was. You seem to infer that it wasn't evne though i said it was. An occurance that has rarely happend except for in this thread.

Either you missed my reference of the review of the Sweep System done by Splatt magazine or you intentionaly ignored.

It is too often the same: The Alien ND is light, well built, extremely reliable, very low maintance, probably the easiest to service, operates with the LPR at 55 psi, has an very low profile integrated feedneck, has no barrel rise when it is shot, is available with Tadao board with 4 eye capability - fast, and is beautifully made here in the United States. But those that want to bash only want to talk about the Sweep System and the "show me the Physics". The physics are not in question, bullets proved the physics centuries ago.

Quote:
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the creed ... it obviously isn't the piece of crap you like to claim it is
No, that isn't what I said. Someone came on and said that it was way, way, way, way, way better quality than "older Aliens". I countered that the Creeds teams had shown me were not well wade, and made in Taiwan. That was countered that they are made in the UK and are well made...now. That the Creed guns made in Taiwan were not as good as the Alien was kind of left off to the side while the cries of righteous indignation rang out. All the while everyone posting says they have nothing to do with Creed but are finding this thread. I think there are more new people posting here than have for a a couple of months. Probaly since it was announced that XSV was shooting Alien guns.

It is interesting that these new posters on the site have no problem with any of the critical comments made by others and few seem to want to acknowledge that the ND has every advantage that their gun claims. It also seems strange to me that "quite a few" "uninterested" people want to support yet another UK gun over the 'Made in the USA' Alien and the only reasons given is that I protest too much when attached and I haven't "proven" that the trajectory is superior to "their satisfaction".
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:41 PM #68
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Originally Posted by L_x View Post
- Both the ND and the Creed are manufactured locally to the company and not in Taiwan as earlier suggested.

- Both have all the fancy things you'd expect from a marker in it's price range.

- Both are very competitive with companies much larger than their own.

- Both seem to have a loyal fan base and good customer service.

- Both companies believe in their product enough to offer a 'try before you buy' system to get the public to see 'what the fuss is about'.

My suggestion is to do just that, as with most high-end markers alot of the difference between them is personal preference.
And my suggestion is - unless you see a decided difference - Be American and Buy American!
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:21 PM #69
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And my suggestion is - unless you see a decided difference - Be American and Buy American!
Buy Bob Long!
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:40 PM #70
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Buy Bob Long! And Alien! And Vanguard! And have three of the best poppits on the market!!!!!
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:49 AM #71
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And my suggestion is - unless you see a decided difference - Be American and Buy American!
First of all, hes not American
Second of all, if theres not a "decided difference" in the markers, im going to be the smart consumer and purchase the one that comes with a barrel kit, a portable charger, a very nice case, and very nice set of allen keys, I dont give a damn if its American made or not, its the smarter buy.

Now, on topic of this very heated "discussion". Jack, you have done nothing to prove your bolt works. I dont want to hear about what the players say, or what you have seen. As a potential customer I want to see scientific proof of your bolt in action. Clamp a gun to some solid object, chrono it to 290 without the sweep bolt, shoot 200 shots, then swap bolts, chrono the gun again to 290 and shoot another 200. Make sure to record everything.
As of right now, someone has already done a scientific test proving you wrong, all you did was call them liars. Its not my job to prove that your product is bull****, its your job to prove it isnt.

One last thing. I have nothing against Alien, but you seem to be acting very unprofessional, and its only hurting your company. Theres no reason to get defensive and "attack", or disrespect another company. Just state why your product works, prove it...and watch the dollars roll in.
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:33 AM #72
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I have seen a video proving the sweep bolt works,What i have not seen was this someone who has disproved it.Who is this someone i would like to see it. Show us this someone video.I think Mr Rice has acted in a very professional manner He is standing up for what he worked hard to build the past years.I think the marker shoots lights out,would not trade it for anything out there.Keep up the good work Jack.
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:24 AM #73
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Jack you remind me more and more of Jim Drew. Spin doctor and hype master. Anything or anyone that criticizes you is automatically wrong and you are the one who is right. This could go on forever, like arguing with a 5 year old child who will not admit they are wrong. I apologize, you are obviously incapable of being wrong and I (the secret/covert Vanguard person I apparently am) can not discern that.

Also, I like how you are a patriot if you buy an Alien gun! Buy bonds and Aliens!
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:41 AM #74
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I owned an 09 Alien and the bolt works as it is intended period. Jack makes great guns. Vanguard sorry but your gun is ugly and takes way less CNC work. It is an overpriced wanabee gun just like the Luxe. It is no secret that I am an Ego fan and anyone that has shot one of my (3) ego's will tell you how smooth and quiet they can shoot when tuned properly but every gun including the Alien has to be tuned to shoot smooth and quiet. I would never buy a piece of **** Vanguard Creed.

Oh and one more thing, Impact won the first NPPL event and got second at the PSP behind Dynasty and what was that oh yeah the shoot ego's!!! Nuff said.
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:53 AM #75
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Oh and one more thing, Impact won the first NPPL event and got second at the PSP behind Dynasty and what was that oh yeah the shoot ego's!!! Nuff said.
Yes because the Ego won them the entire event... The sheer fact that Dynasty never won an event with a Shocker? An Angel?

I watched Mike Carey run around an Xball field with a mechanical Autococker stealing souls this past Sunday. It wasn't an Ego though so I assume he's never won an game/event in his life.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:09 AM #76
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Right on! Get an Ego shoot it and love it! Get an Alien shoot it and love it! Buy anything else shoot it and cry night after night wishing you would have bought the only two guns above. Don't be a dummy and shoot a ****ty gun! Ego and Alien thats it!!!!
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:29 AM #77
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I apologize, you are obviously incapable of being wrong... Also, I like how you are a patriot if you buy an Alien gun! Buy bonds and Aliens!
Why is this so personal - either the Sweep makes the gun shoot better or it doesn't. Players asked for a video - I did one. Almost everyone that sees the video at an event for the first time looks at it and is very impressed.

Players that buy the guns never, ever, at any time, at all, come back and say "I was mislead, you promised me a better shooting gun and this one isn't it". Rather I get compliments and gratitude. And from those that own them but sell them, I hear that they remember their Aliens fondly.

It is only those that have never bought an Alien that want me to admit that I'm some "wall street manipulator who knew all along what I was saying wasn't true" and make personal attacks.

Look at the whole package and you will see it is a very, very nice gun. Starts at under $1,000 and if you want a Tadao board with 4 eye system - we have that too. As to the value, and as mentioned, in a couple of weeks the new tri-fold gun bags will be in and the gun will come with a bag, the 5 piece barrel kit, and the Magnalube oil. You will still have to buy your own Allen wrenches - maybe I'm wrong and I'll include that too.

As to the "Be American, Buy American" well players have the choice - all things being equal - to help provide a pay check to someone to make parts here in the USA or to ship more of our money outside the country. So yes, by paying more for parts made here and still charging less than what the big boys charge for their foreign made stuff, to some that is patriotic.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:13 PM #78
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Jack what I said is not about the sweep system, rather your attitude throughout the discussion. You feel as if your comments were not hostile and I was wrong for thinking so. It has nothing to do with your product, just the manner you go on the defensive to prove a point.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:32 PM #79
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JACK is just passionate about his gun and as very well should be. The fact that an owner gets this involved and personal is awesome! It is expensive to make guns in the USA and not many machinists (none) work for minimum wage. I work in the Tool & Die industry so I know. You are getting the absolute top quality gun that blows most others away. The guy is for real and so is his gun!
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:03 PM #80
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As to the value, and as mentioned, in a couple of weeks the new tri-fold gun bags will be in and the gun will come with a bag, the 5 piece barrel kit, and the Magnalube oil. You will still have to buy your own Allen wrenches - maybe I'm wrong and I'll include that too.
That is the kind of thing that makes your company look good.

And you are right, you did put up a video of your bolt. But you have no proof that your bolt actually increases distance/accuracy. You have an un-chrono'd gun shooting higher on a board. Chrono it with each bolt and repeat your test, and then do something thats quite easy, it doesnt require a vice or a chrono...just the sweep bolt. Turn the gun at a 90 degree angle and see if the paint curves to the side.

I dont see why you are so reluctant to do a fool proof test. If you are so confident in your bolt, why would you NOT want to prove it works to EVERYBODY?

Quote:
I owned an 09 Alien and the bolt works as it is intended period. Jack makes great guns. Vanguard sorry but your gun is ugly and takes way less CNC work. It is an overpriced wanabee gun just like the Luxe. It is no secret that I am an Ego fan and anyone that has shot one of my (3) ego's will tell you how smooth and quiet they can shoot when tuned properly but every gun including the Alien has to be tuned to shoot smooth and quiet. I would never buy a piece of **** Vanguard Creed.

Oh and one more thing, Impact won the first NPPL event and got second at the PSP behind Dynasty and what was that oh yeah the shoot ego's!!! Nuff said.
You are quite the funny person. First off, you shoot egos. You have no room to talk about guns being overpriced. Both markers being discussed here are superior to the ego, and both are $300 cheaper. The Creed costs $24 more than the alien. Its overpriced? You want an oled, add $200 to the price tag, you want a barrel kit? uh oh....another $100. So, for $1250, you have a marker that still doesnt compete with the Creed in terms of "value".

Oh, and you speaking of pro teams winning and making it look like their markers won it for them makes every single thing you said about a marker invalid.

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Old 04-20-2010, 02:17 PM #81
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And you are right, you did put up a video of your bolt. But you have no proof that your bolt actually increases distance/accuracy. You have an un-chrono'd gun shooting higher on a board.
Higher on the board - so the ball is gong to go further :face palm: and half as large a circle. You people drive me mad - I would say crazy, but I do get mad with those who choose such selective reasoning.

Un-chrono'd but the guy who didn't show the gun working stated that the open bolt does - as I said it did - Chrono at about 3 to 5 fps higher.

Some said they wanted a video - I did it . Then some got even uglier and it wasn't good enough. I changed something. David Copperfield can make the Statue of Liberty disappear on a video - so I figure if you don't believe this video you won't believe the next one either. That was a very simple video - done in one take - you choose to not think it's real, honest, valid, acceptable, ..., OK

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Turn the gun at a 90 degree angle and see if the paint curves to the side.
Many have turned the gun to the side - it doesn't curve. As I have said so many times, I didn't start out to make a gun that shot straighter. I discovered how to and one that is stronger while lighter - Independent Ram.

It may be that like a truck displacing the wind - if the truck has a very flat face - motor home - it has more wind resistance and gets less gas mileage - less distance. If you keep the height but rake the front, the wind will move over it more easily and improve the mileage - more distance. Likewise is it most probable that the rotation of the ball is moving the air off the ball - not stacking as much air in front of the ball. Think about a convection oven - the heat is the same but air moves inside "stripping the thermal blanket" off the food so it cooks faster.

I have gone over the accuracy - the knuckleball, each ball finding it's own rotation and breaking that way - wider pattern, vs. the fastball - some gyroscopic rotation and even seams - much better accuracy.

It's really very easy to understand and very believable - unless you have already decided that it can't be true and your are going to prove it - theoretically. Thing is you can't prove it doens't work because I have shown it working and many have experienced that it works. Now someone can also show it not working - or working well enogh for them. But that would be like crashing a spaceship on the moon and saying walking on the moon is impossible - no it's been done several times, just becasue you screw it up doesn't mean much.
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Last edited by Jack Rice : 04-20-2010 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:19 PM #82
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As to the value, and as mentioned, in a couple of weeks the new tri-fold gun bags will be in and the gun will come with a bag, the 5 piece barrel kit, and the Magnalube oil. You will still have to buy your own Allen wrenches - maybe I'm wrong and I'll include that too.
guess I will wait awhile til I decide to order one then. Now will their be some sort of announcement when you guys officially start including that w/ the gun?
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:27 PM #83
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You are quite the funny person....First off, you shoot egos. You have no room to talk
Ouch... he bought and paid for a Alien - you didn't.
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:50 PM #84
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boy my head hurts after reading!
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