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Old 04-14-2010, 04:43 PM #22
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lucky style barrels, lucky air assist valves, triggers look like lucky ion stuff, Uses an updated version of the evolve pi regulator which lucky and evolve merged. If its not the guys from lucky/evolve behind vanguard id be stunned. I wonder what kind of lube comes with the guns, if anyone owns a vanguard is the lube green and smells kind of warm like cinnamon (kind of) then its evolve cinnamon butter lube to. Side note that is one of my favorite lubes ever, used to mix it with love juice for my trixes and never had to run anti bolt stick

pi reg is a great idea just the original was poorly made.
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:33 PM #23
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Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
Your right! Your cheap Taiwanese gun isn't' nearly as good as our Made in America gun - Ours is quality milled from a solid piece of 6061 billet Aluminum - that looks extruded with a quick rounded finish - no cut lines at all.
The ND has an LPR pressure of between 50 and 55 - the smoothest spool may be just a little smoother but that is about it
Just making stuff up here, nothing to back it up... Ugly, most tell me they really like the look of the ND, as far as what it's worth, it's cheaper than most guns that perform 'almost' as well . The Creed is $25 more than a new ND, and a extruded Asian gun "should" cost a lot less than a machined American gun, so they are the one that is overpriced. And for a little more you get a Tadao board. Either way you get an SMC solenoid, a Critical trigger and quality throughout.
Remember the NME - came with big talk lot lot of flash (rep in the Creed booth last year told me the gun got 2,400 shots) then gone. Infinity Legend -was the fastest gun avaliable. Now Creed - they are??? the low pressure gun, is that about it, low pressure, anything else? We'll see
You misread. The Alien quality was far far far far BELOW that of the Creed. Now it might have improved, as I said, I don't know. But the ones I had were very poorly made.

And again, for pressure, I'm sure the Alien has improved since I owned Aliens. But I can only compare to what I DID use. And they were anything BUT smooth. Felt very much like a Spyder in terms of how smooth is was. As said, I've never had a chance to try anything newer.

For ugly, I meant the color schemes. I think the red that Alien uses is quite possibly the ugliest color used by any company for solid colors (I hate laser engraving more). I love the blue/yellow, blue/black, clear/black and clear/yellow ones. Just red/anything is IMO EXTREMELY ugly. But it seems the only colors I ever see for sale are either solid colors (not my thing), or red/something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer50505 View Post
lucky style barrels, lucky air assist valves, triggers look like lucky ion stuff, Uses an updated version of the evolve pi regulator which lucky and evolve merged. If its not the guys from lucky/evolve behind vanguard id be stunned. I wonder what kind of lube comes with the guns, if anyone owns a vanguard is the lube green and smells kind of warm like cinnamon (kind of) then its evolve cinnamon butter lube to. Side note that is one of my favorite lubes ever, used to mix it with love juice for my trixes and never had to run anti bolt stick

pi reg is a great idea just the original was poorly made.
yes, the guys behind Vanguard are the same as those behind Lucky.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:46 PM #24
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we are talking about the newer aliens. as the title says, the 2010 Independence T nothing else. your arguments are invalid at this point unfortunately. i do agree that the older aliens were not too great, BUT they were very smooth when tuned correctly. I shot many of the old interceptors, some were very smooth with NO kick, others were complete crap.

until you try the independence, mostly the 09-10, please do not bash this company
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:54 PM #25
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well until I get to shoot a Creed I really dont have anything to make comparisons about. however I have shot an 09 ND and currently own a ND10t. I've owned or shot a good number of guns.(with the exception of the Creed and if anybody in the Washington State owns one I'd love to shoot it so I can see the difference for myself) and non of them has shoot flatter than the my ND. I owned an 07 ego and one of the guys at my field owned an 09ND. he said "try this. it shoots flatter than your ego" of course I was in denial until I hit the field and was crossing to the opposite corner with ease.
I think it's funny when people try to disprove something that they've never experienced.

none the less if you ever get a chance to shoot one you should. that all I can say. but then again I've never been a D!ck Rider or a Wagon Boy... and go by what other people say.
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:05 PM #26
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The older aliens were a bit hit or miss when it comes to quality because they were made in some god forsaken far away place. Fortunately whoever is making them now does a fantastic job and the gun quality is fantastic. The anno is also a LOT better. The older anno jobs weren't very dense...the new ones are.

That being said, I also have a creed and it's a very nice gun. Needs a bit of work in a few minor areas(it's only a year old) but still a great gun as it stands now(mine has always run flawlessly). The company has former lucky employees yes, but the original lucky owner(who was the shady one) isn't involved. Everyone involved there now is a top notch character if I do say so myself. If they were asshats I'd tell you trust me lol.
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:28 AM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
Your right! Your cheap Taiwanese gun isn't' nearly as good as our Made in America gun - Ours is quality milled from a solid piece of 6061 billet Aluminum - that looks extruded with a quick rounded finish - no cut lines at all.
The ND has an LPR pressure of between 50 and 55 - the smoothest spool may be just a little smoother but that is about it
Just making stuff up here, nothing to back it up... Ugly, most tell me they really like the look of the ND, as far as what it's worth, it's cheaper than most guns that perform 'almost' as well . The Creed is $25 more than a new ND, and a extruded Asian gun "should" cost a lot less than a machined American gun, so they are the one that is overpriced. And for a little more you get a Tadao board. Either way you get an SMC solenoid, a Critical trigger and quality throughout.
Remember the NME - came with big talk lot lot of flash (rep in the Creed booth last year told me the gun got 2,400 shots) then gone. Infinity Legend -was the fastest gun avaliable. Now Creed - they are??? the low pressure gun, is that about it, low pressure, anything else? We'll see
You seriously need to get your facts right,

also your knowledge of manufacturing techniques also needs updating

I can guarantee the body on the creed takes a lot longer to mill than the alien, it is not extruded it would be impossible to extrude a surface like that.

for the last 6 months the body and all major components have been machined in the UK.

the lpr in the creed runs between 70 -80 psi but is moving a ram with a lower surface area and much lower mass than the alien.

You need to think before you type you are always on the defensive you dont see bob long or jack wood piping up when someone compares their gun to someone else's


And your comment on price

it is $25 more than your stock gun yet comes with OLED, rubber moulded grips barrel kit and all the accessories you need to charge the gun anywhere in the world

And as for creed they are?? comment
You have room to talk about claims, you are living of your claim your gun shoots flatter is that it??? even that has been proven not to be true and even if it did so what........

what sets you above everyone else?? you use the name of a trigger company a board company and a solenoid company to sell your gun how about you develop your own products.

and to the last bit of your post "we'll see"

Yes we will
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Old 04-15-2010, 11:06 AM #28
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You seriously need to get your facts right...I can guarantee the body on the creed takes a lot longer to mill than the alien, it is not extruded.
Maybe you need a new machinist, The simplistic rounded design shouldn't take as long to make as the more intricate sculpted design of the Independence.

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for the last 6 months the body and all major components have been machined in the UK.
Really, 6 months now, but you seem to think I should have know that. Don't worry what you did for your stated 3 years of development or the first year you made the guns

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the LPR in the creed runs between 70 -80 psi but is moving a ram with a lower surface area and much lower mass than the alien.
This then means that your gun runs at 40% higher pressure than the Indpendence... with some undetermined "much" lower mass.

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you are living of your claim your gun shoots flatter is that it??? even that has been proven not to be true and even if it did so what?
That is the what! The object of the game is to shoot the other guy. My gun shoots more accurately. End of story - I have a video showing it, Players attest to it. AND no one has proven it not to be true, rather by any reasonable measure it has been shown to be true and it is a quantitative statement as to how much more accurately the gun shoots under what conditions. Not "Living of(f) your claim", but rather living off making a better product.

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what sets you above everyone else?? you use the name of a trigger company a board company and a solenoid company to sell your gun how about you develop your own products.
Well after the fact that my gun is more accurate...Yes, I use the best components. Creed uses MAC. I used MAC in 2006, 2007, and halfway through 2008 I dropped them for a solenoid that I feel is much better, so I state that. I didn't take someone else's' trigger and copy it, I paid them for their design, it's called integrity. I felt that the Tadao board was the best so that too is available.
I have developed The Independent Ram and the Sweep System, I was years ahead of everyone else in the use of a single hose and a direct mounted solenoid. I am the only one with quick release fittings for the easiest service, the only gun that can be teched while aired up and powered on AND separated into it 3 main pieces. While everyone else had a open Rammer I bought out a sealed unit. I can't think of another company that has as a unique a gun with as many improvements as Alien has had. To give credit where credit is due, Bob Long brought out the first Rammer gun with eyes, plus he has his in-line poppet/still almost a spool, Marq/Victory design.
Looking at the Creed site I see "Advanced Air Flow" ...meaninless! and a battery charger. Looking past the razzel, dazzel of the words and the very cool packaging, that's all I see and i have pretty good eyes.
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and to the last bit of your post "we'll see"

Yes we will
See we do agree on some things
As far as going on the Alien threads and answering critisism directly - yes I have done and will continue to do that. What I haven't done is go trolling around others sites trying to get some notoriety for myself
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Old 04-15-2010, 11:44 AM #29
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Jack i think you should come down to texas to let me test out one of your guns lol i cant find anyone in this state that has one, well at least someone around me that is.

but as far as the flatter shooting goes, im sure you have done your research mind showing me the physics behind it?
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Old 04-15-2010, 03:12 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
Maybe you need a new machinist, The simplistic rounded design shouldn't take as long to make as the more intricate sculpted design of the Independence.

Really, 6 months now, but you seem to think I should have know that. Don't worry what you did for your stated 3 years of development or the first year you made the guns

This then means that your gun runs at 40% higher pressure than the Indpendence... with some undetermined "much" lower mass.

That is the what! The object of the game is to shoot the other guy. My gun shoots more accurately. End of story - I have a video showing it, Players attest to it. AND no one has proven it not to be true, rather by any reasonable measure it has been shown to be true and it is a quantitative statement as to how much more accurately the gun shoots under what conditions. Not "Living of(f) your claim", but rather living off making a better product.

Well after the fact that my gun is more accurate...Yes, I use the best components. Creed uses MAC. I used MAC in 2006, 2007, and halfway through 2008 I dropped them for a solenoid that I feel is much better, so I state that. I didn't take someone else's' trigger and copy it, I paid them for their design, it's called integrity. I felt that the Tadao board was the best so that too is available.
I have developed The Independent Ram and the Sweep System, I was years ahead of everyone else in the use of a single hose and a direct mounted solenoid. I am the only one with quick release fittings for the easiest service, the only gun that can be teched while aired up and powered on AND separated into it 3 main pieces. While everyone else had a open Rammer I bought out a sealed unit. I can't think of another company that has as a unique a gun with as many improvements as Alien has had. To give credit where credit is due, Bob Long brought out the first Rammer gun with eyes, plus he has his in-line poppet/still almost a spool, Marq/Victory design.
Looking at the Creed site I see "Advanced Air Flow" ...meaninless! and a battery charger. Looking past the razzel, dazzel of the words and the very cool packaging, that's all I see and i have pretty good eyes.
See we do agree on some things
As far as going on the Alien threads and answering critisism directly - yes I have done and will continue to do that. What I haven't done is go trolling around others sites trying to get some notoriety for myself
Mrrrrrow! lol.

Ok since I own both I'll chime in a bit where I can.

I don't know how either guns is milled, but I have no issue with either gun. The quality is great on both. As a consumer, I don't really care how they get that way, as long as they ARE that way.

The creed rammer is a lot smaller and lighter than the alien(at least my 09 indy). The creed is smoother than the alien but both are close and at the top of the heap as far as I'm concerned. Probably why I own both.

Noids......I love the performance of the mac noids. I love the performance of the SMC noids. I still think the SMC are more durable but the custom configured macs the creed uses seem to be pretty stable as well. I don't see anyone having noid issues in the forums, so that's good. Again, as a consumer I don't really care, as long as it works and is dependable I'm happy.

The alien does run on lower LPR pressure but it's a bit higher on HPR pressure than the creed. I don't think the pressure is as important as the energy delivered to the paint in the stack. Both guns seem to shoot the brittle stuff with ease, and have good stack alignment.

Accuracy wise, I honestly don't see any difference. Of course my guns are always tuned properly, kept clean, barrels bore matched and I use good paint. They both shoot darts for me. Maybe I'm just a paintball ninja, hi-ya you're out!

Both the 10t and creed have OLED. My 09 doesn't have oled but I'm not the type to be switching modes and crap a lot. I can go either way, but if I had to choose the OLED would obviously be my pick. I have a feelig alien will go 100% OLED next year

Out of the box the creed has a lot more......gun case, chargers for all continents, barrel kit, oil, allen keys, etc etc, no arguing that. It's pretty cool. I never use a gun case personally, and I only need one charger but the other extras are nice. The allen keys are hot, but you have to watch out because people WILL steal them lol. The aliens don't come with a lot but for most ballers who have everything anyway it's not a big deal. For guys buying their first high end, the creed is a better deal.

I like both companies beacause they both listen to input from their consumers to improve their products. Of course anyone who listens to me personally I love......since most folks don't LOL.

Hmmm not sure what else to say.
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:09 PM #31
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Quote:
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Accuracy wise, I honestly don't see any difference. Of course my guns are always tuned properly, kept clean, barrels bore matched and I use good paint. They both shoot darts for me. Maybe I'm just a paintball ninja, hi-ya you're out!
You have always seemed to be quite reasonable - so
Take both guns - pick a target about 150 feet away. A pole on a field seems to work best. Aim at the top say 2 feet - same paint and same barrel. Shoot one ball until you hit it. Then switch the barrel. Count how many shots it take to hit the pole. If you get lucky and hit it the first time - OK lucky but switch. Do it 5 times or 10 times whatever and compare how many times with each until you have to switch. This seems to work the best because if you shoot 20 shots or 10 or ??? it turns into pray and spray - but if you are going to change the barrel each time you take you time.
Now of course you can do what ever test you like - bench tests are even better - but noticing the improvement at 50 or 70 feet while playing is hard, your moving you can't see where the ball hits as well. But to take slow controlled shots helps. Some have done 50 shots at the same pole while others count the hits to see the width of the patter.
Also you might want to have someone take your picture with their phone to see the angle of the gun, lower angel straighter shot.
Also it's best to do it when everything seems to be going well. Bad paint or a dirty barrel evens things to the lowest denominator.

Quote:
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Out of the box the creed has a lot more......gun case, chargers for all continents, barrel kit, oil, Allen keys, etc etc,
Well I don't know about the etc, but you will be seeing a very cool gun bag that also holds the 5 piece barrel, we do include the Magnalube oil now. Check us out in a couple of weeks when the bags come in and I think you will be even more pleased with what is included. - and yes, or those that have bought recently for a very slight fee you can get the extras.

Lastly, this started with someone saying my older guns weren't as good - I received an '05 yesterday - quick fix and it was shooting great - it is tournament ready now and will keep up with the best available. The '06 and '07 Remains - still great guns - top quality and I will take anyone, that has had even reasonable care, and with a quick tune it will shoot with the best.
Creed was made last year overseas and had more than a few problems - now I'm told there are made in the UK and from what I am hearing are better. BUT I will put any of the '05 to '07 up against last years Creed in quality and I don't think it would be a fair fight - Alien wins. I am hearing that their 2010 is better quality and compares to my 2009 and 2010 - OK. But to say that if you take the lesser of the Alien guns (bought used) and place them up against the better they have made and that's a comparison - that's just dumb and most probably deliberately biased. Bottom line I am convinced that upon careful inspection players will find that the Aline Sweep system does shot more accurately and a longer shot. So maybe Mastrkey will take me up on my offer and maybe not - but ...
Quote:
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The aliens don't come with a lot but for most ballers who have everything anyway it's not a big deal. For guys buying their first high end, the creed is a better deal.
If you want extra stuff then this may be true - if you want to shoot more people out - I am certain Alien is the choice.
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Old 04-16-2010, 11:31 PM #32
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I'm glad to see you're including some extras with the aliens now. I guess with the gun design perfected you have more time to work on extras. That's good Like I said, it helps out for newer guys buying their first high end. Especially lube.........it still amazes me how many paintball players don't even have a supply of grease or oil in their bag. Shame on you people!

Gun testing.....maybe if I'm feeling energetic this summer I'll do it with all three of my guns at the same time.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:23 PM #33
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:44 PM #34
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Wow Jack. I'm a bit surprised to see an owner of a company get so hostile towards a competitor. For me, as a business owner, to see that really paints your company in a negative color. It would be like the CEO of Honda posting on a Toyota forum about how crappy the 4Runner is and you'd be fool not to get a Pilot.

I've been following you and your gun since it's original alien head boltless design and have always rooted for you to be successful. Now, after this I can tell you that you lost one potential customer. Might mean nothing to you and that's fine, but know there are people out there that look to deal with companies that exude class.

Best of luck to you.
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Old 04-17-2010, 07:10 PM #35
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Wow Jack. I'm a bit surprised to see an owner of a company get so hostile towards a competitor. For me, as a business owner, to see that really paints your company in a negative color. It would be like the CEO of Honda posting on a Toyota forum about how crappy the 4Runner is and you'd be fool not to get a Pilot.

I've been following you and your gun since it's original alien head boltless design and have always rooted for you to be successful. Now, after this I can tell you that you lost one potential customer. Might mean nothing to you and that's fine, but know there are people out there that look to deal with companies that exude class.

Best of luck to you.
Except he's not going into OTHER forums to make his point, so it wouldn't be like Honda posting on a Toyota forum, it would be like Toyota posting on a Honda forum and Honda defending themselves.
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Old 04-17-2010, 07:46 PM #36
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From what is see here is alot of going back and forth over this crap. I know Jack, I have been to his house and shot one of his brand new 2010 markers. And I will say yes it shot well just as the creed shot well. So just to get you all to quit bickering. I will call Jack personaly I will buy one if his markers from him and do a comparison on video with both markers on a bench top vice shooting both with the same exact set up and I will give you all an honest opinion. Even though I work for Vanguard. If Jack would like to buy one from me I will ask him to do the same test as I will do to compare. Not being byuss but a true honest opinion. So I chalange you Jack Rice to a shoot off with each others markers on video we both set up the markers and send them out to one another.
Hell I may even come to your house to do this together.

Eric

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Old 04-17-2010, 09:08 PM #37
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Except he's not going into OTHER forums to make his point, so it wouldn't be like Honda posting on a Toyota forum, it would be like Toyota posting on a Honda forum and Honda defending themselves.
I think you have the roles reversed here, my friend. Paul from Vanguard defended his company that Jack was attacking. That's why I don't understand your argument. Paul is wrong for defending his company because it is not the vanguard forum? Anyway....

I'd very much like to see a bench mounted test of an alien against a creed or any other gun. A poorly shot video of a guy swapping bolts and we do not see a velocity does not impress me. One where both guns are chronoed at the same velocity, shooting the same paint with the same barrel, and bench mounted would.

That would qualify the sweep system more than any other "proof" I've seen.

Here's to making this happen!
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Old 04-17-2010, 09:57 PM #38
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Wow Jack. I'm a bit surprised to see an owner of a company get so hostile towards a competitor. For me, as a business owner, to see that really paints your company in a negative color. It would be like the CEO of Honda posting on a Toyota forum about how crappy the 4Runner is and you'd be fool not to get a Pilot.

I've been following you and your gun since it's original alien head boltless design and have always rooted for you to be successful. Now, after this I can tell you that you lost one potential customer. Might mean nothing to you and that's fine, but know there are people out there that look to deal with companies that exude class.

Best of luck to you.
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Except he's not going into OTHER forums to make his point, so it wouldn't be like Honda posting on a Toyota forum, it would be like Toyota posting on a Honda forum and Honda defending themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim View Post
I think you have the roles reversed here, my friend. Paul from Vanguard defended his company that Jack was attacking. That's why I don't understand your argument. Paul is wrong for defending his company because it is not the vanguard forum? Anyway....

I'd very much like to see a bench mounted test of an alien against a creed or any other gun. A poorly shot video of a guy swapping bolts and we do not see a velocity does not impress me. One where both guns are chronoed at the same velocity, shooting the same paint with the same barrel, and bench mounted would.

That would qualify the sweep system more than any other "proof" I've seen.

Here's to making this happen!
No Jim, I'm pretty sure I don't have the roles reversed, and bolded the text, unedited so you can reread what you wrote . Jack didn't go into Vanguards forum and tell people not to buy the Creed. Someone earlier in the thread made claims about the comparison between an 05 or 06 Alien and a 2010 Creed. Jack defended himself. He didn't go some where else like you put it, he stayed in his house and defended his product.
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:07 PM #39
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I understand your point. You are correct in terms of Jack speaking in house and has every right to do so. My point was that to emphasize this Jack began to flame another company in the process. There is nothing wrong with being defensive about your product but, as a consumer I do not want to see the person that represents the company act in such a manner. My metaphor was to express this notion. Your are correct in terms of forum placement, the companies would be reversed in the correct anecdotal placement but, my point remains the same: it is unflattering to see such actions to say the least.
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:05 PM #40
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Originally Posted by Jim View Post
I understand your point. You are correct in terms of Jack speaking in house and has every right to do so. My point was that to emphasize this Jack began to flame another company in the process. There is nothing wrong with being defensive about your product but, as a consumer I do not want to see the person that represents the company act in such a manner. My metaphor was to express this notion. Your are correct in terms of forum placement, the companies would be reversed in the correct anecdotal placement but, my point remains the same: it is unflattering to see such actions to say the least.
I think you're missing the point. It's simple really, it is not good business to say "yeah, our product is great, but you can get something as good or better with more as well." Does not make sense for Jack not to defend his product while "attacking" the competitor. Jack has kept it in the Alien forum so what is the issue. Jack feels his product is superior to whatever else is out there and he defends it. Jack even makes a claim that some agree with and some don't, but that can easily be tested and refuted. Yet, nobody does. I have very little exprience with Alien (1 teammate owns a 10t) and only seen players shoot the creed at my field. What I can say for certain is the the Alien product is solid from my perspective and I WILL own one soon. The Creed looks interesting, but not really on my radar at this point.
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:15 AM #41
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I want to see Shootnpoo's test. He's a good guy and I trust anything he comes up with to be legit. Personally I'd like to see both guns bench mounted with the same barrel switched back and forth between them so we can see any difference realtime. Chrony shots in there would be nice. Maybe different ranges.

The rest of this arguement is kind of pointless. Who cares who said what when?
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Old 04-18-2010, 08:40 AM #42
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Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
I want to see Shootnpoo's test. He's a good guy and I trust anything he comes up with to be legit. Personally I'd like to see both guns bench mounted with the same barrel switched back and forth between them so we can see any difference realtime. Chrony shots in there would be nice. Maybe different ranges.

The rest of this arguement is kind of pointless. Who cares who said what when?
Im with you.. I will talk to Eric if he is not going to do the test we will order a 10 indy and do the test I have creeds in stock. I was on the edge last night, but i have access to sell either marker and now getting very intrested in seeing how this turns out. Even if Eric performs the test I think I will also perform the test then you good men that are the end users can see the videos and decide for yourselves.
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