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Old 04-01-2010, 12:11 PM #22
Sacred Disorder
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If someone can send/knows where to get a spring ill do it. I was going to make a video of oil vs grease would be cool to done one with a spring vs non spring oil vs grease.
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:08 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert O.G View Post
yes but the mag also uses the spring to return the bolt (much like a mini) where as here the spring is being used to move the bolt. ive seen this mod on shockers do to the horrible bolt stick issues, but geos dont seem to have that problem so im curious to see the pros and con of a spring in a geo
mag is still the only gun ill stick my finger in the breach with a level 10, i would not attempt this with any other gun
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:38 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mouse View Post
mag is still the only gun ill stick my finger in the breach with a level 10, i would not attempt this with any other gun
I have done this with every gun I own. I even have a G3 that's surprisingly gentle on paint. My point is as long as the ball is rested against the bolt face when it begins to move forward there will be virtually no damage to the ball. Now if the face of the bolt slaps against the ball that's when you could have problems.
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:32 PM #25
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Yep, that is exactly the problem that the G-R2 Propshaft resolved.

The tip of the original prop was longer, to eliminate roll back and hold the ball in line with the eyes. This lead to the ball being held a short way in front of the bolt tip. The speed that the bolt achieved just in travelling the short distance between it's start point and the ball was enough to crack the ball on impact. Shortening the tip of the prop resolved that issue.
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Old 04-01-2010, 05:25 PM #26
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Yep, I know the mag is the exact reverse, as the mag uses a spring on the outside of the bolt, which the air forces the bolt forward compressing the spring...i was just saying in my mind it made me think of how mags used different springs do make different adjustments that made the gun shoot entirely different.

Basically, the level X used a MUCH heavier and longer spring than stock to slow the bolt down and then used shims to tell the valve when to vent off in case of a misfeed so that the bolt would in essence hit the breaks when it wasnt allowed to complete its cycle (bad explanation but the best you'll get 2 straight bourbons into the night).

And i did do the Tom Kaye tongue in breach test, it lightly touched my tongue and then reset...didnt hurt a bit...but boy that was a scary moment in my life!!

Anyway, continue on lads.
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Old 04-01-2010, 05:45 PM #27
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I will try to spring mod my geo when I get back home.
I am running the st bolt. If the spring makes the geo any louder, then it's not worth doing.

I just got done polishing the inside and outside of the gst bolt.
Brand new geo. Dropped the dwell from 14.5 to 9 with no drop in fps and no differance in sound.

Jack said the faster the geo bolt moves the louder the gun will be. So let's see if the spring makes it louder. But a dwell of 9 and fsdo at 0 is good enough for me.

Back soon with pics and vids if the spring will do anything good. I doubt it will.

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Old 04-01-2010, 06:27 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooty51 View Post

Jack said the faster the geo bolt moves the louder the gun will be. So let's see if the spring makes it louder. But a dwell of 9 and fsdo at 0 is good enough for me.
My very 1st geo was running those setting..
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:49 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun View Post
I have done this with every gun I own. I even have a G3 that's surprisingly gentle on paint.
Here's a tip - don't try that with a Mini.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:05 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious49 View Post
Here's a tip - don't try that with a Mini.
Dont have a mini to try it on but Ill take your word for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96 Ls lnteg View Post
My very 1st geo was running those setting..
My current geo with GST and GR-2 runs at a dwell of 9.5.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:56 PM #31
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I really don't see this mod doing much.. imo.....
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:49 PM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uziel Gal View Post
Funnily enough, one rumour I read recently was that the Geo2 was sprung. With the claims for increased efficiency also being rumoured, it makes you wonder, huh? But, and I emphasise this, at the moment, those are just rumours. I have no inside knowledge of the Geo2.
LOL..I "hear" the same thing too...BUT, I'm not sure if it is a 'mechanical spring' or a 'spring effect' due to say a 'pocket of air' which the bolt 'floats on' in the return stop area (kinda like the air 'cushion' with the Zick kits on Ego's) - - which I "hear" has a DRAMATIC affect on the kick of the Geo2!..

I've "heard" that one particular person who was shooting a 'prototype' Geo2 at practice in Phoenix actually brought the gun back to PE and thought the velocity was extremely low after the first game......they checked it...and 3 shots all ~ 290fps +/- 3! SOO the "lack of kick" in comparison to the current Geo's made him think the gun was only shooting ~ 220-240 fps!......Now that's impressive!!.. Not to mention the fact that the efficiency was up by about 3 pods per fill (which I'm assuming was a 68 tank) vs the current Geo w/GST.

I have a feeling the reviews of the Geo2 are going to be NOTHING BUT POSITIVE!!..

.

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Old 04-01-2010, 10:58 PM #33
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I'm going to have to go ahead and guess that there's a pretty good chance this will not even work unless the perfect spring is used.

In a Shocker, the air being used to fire the ball is "balanced". It does not influence the bolt to go forwards or backwards. If there was no solenoid air you could theoretically air up the gun and then freely move the bolt back and forth. When the gun is working normally, the solenoid air is transferred from in front of the bolt (pushing it backwards) to the rear of the bolt (pushing it forwards).

Here is an animation. The blue air is used to fire the ball. It is not influencing the bolt to move forwards or backwards. The pink air is controlled by the solenoid. As you can see, it is either pushing backwards only, or pushing forwards only. During firing it first vents, and then energizes the opposite chamber.



When the air is holding it back, there is plenty of force even with a spring pressing forwards because no air is pressing forwards, only the spring. The spring just helps get the bolt moving instantly once the air holding it back is vented, even before the solenoid can switch and start pushing the bolt forward. It speeds up the reaction time.

In a Geo the bolt is not balanced. The bolt has the same amount of air pressure acting on the front and rear of the bolt, at the same time. The only thing holding the bolt back is a difference in area for the pressure to act on. With a larger area on the front of the sail, the same amount of air pressure is able to exert a greater force. The plus side to this, is that as soon as the solenoid starts venting, the bolt will start moving. You don't have to wait for the solenoid to send air into another chamber to move the bolt.



So, in the case of the Geo it is not pressure vs. nothing. It is pressure vs. pressure with a slight difference in area creating the rearward bias when aired up. If the spring is too strong it will offset this delicate balance and the bolt will stick forward and vent all your air. If it is too light it will have little to no effect.

If you are able to simply drop in a spring and the gun even works, the best case scenario is that it will simply speed up the bolt's forward movement. The exact same thing the ST kit was intended to slow down. IMO, if you want a faster bolt, just put the stock can back in and shoot a louder gun with a bit more kick. You can lower your dwell and feel better because someone on the internet told you lower dwell = better.

For a spring to be effective in changing efficiency it would have to be implemented in a much more complex manner that actually has an affect on the valve resolution of the firing cycle. Getting the bolt to move forward more quickly is not really the issue here. The ST kit has shown that (some people actually get better efficiency with a slower bolt, but no one gets worse efficiency).

Feel free to try it, but any difference is most likely going to be a decrease in performance, or at best placebo effect
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:08 PM #34
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I'm going to have to go ahead and guess that there's a pretty good chance this will not even work unless the perfect spring is used.

In a Shocker, the air being used to fire the ball is "balanced". It does not influence the bolt to go forwards or backwards. If there was no solenoid air you could theoretically air up the gun and then freely move the bolt back and forth. When the gun is working normally, the solenoid air is transferred from in front of the bolt (pushing it backwards) to the rear of the bolt (pushing it forwards).

Here is an animation. The blue air is used to fire the ball. It is not influencing the bolt to move forwards or backwards. The pink air is controlled by the solenoid. As you can see, it is either pushing backwards only, or pushing forwards only. During firing it first vents, and then energizes the opposite chamber.



When the air is holding it back, there is plenty of force even with a spring pressing forwards because no air is pressing forwards, only the spring. The spring just helps get the bolt moving instantly once the air holding it back is vented, even before the solenoid can switch and start pushing the bolt forward. It speeds up the reaction time.

In a Geo the bolt is not balanced. The bolt has the same amount of air pressure acting on the front and rear of the bolt, at the same time. The only thing holding the bolt back is a difference in area for the pressure to act on. With a larger area on the front of the sail, the same amount of air pressure is able to exert a greater force. The plus side to this, is that as soon as the solenoid starts venting, the bolt will start moving. You don't have to wait for the solenoid to send air into another chamber to move the bolt.



So, in the case of the Geo it is not pressure vs. nothing. It is pressure vs. pressure with a slight difference in area creating the rearward bias when aired up. If the spring is too strong it will offset this delicate balance and the bolt will stick forward and vent all your air. If it is too light it will have little to no effect.

If you are able to simply drop in a spring and the gun even works, the best case scenario is that it will simply speed up the bolt's forward movement. The exact same thing the ST kit was intended to slow down. IMO, if you want a faster bolt, just put the stock can back in and shoot a louder gun with a bit more kick. You can lower your dwell and feel better because someone on the internet told you lower dwell = better.

For a spring to be effective in changing efficiency it would have to be implemented in a much more complex manner that actually has an affect on the valve resolution of the firing cycle. Getting the bolt to move forward more quickly is not really the issue here. The ST kit has shown that (some people actually get better efficiency with a slower bolt, but no one gets worse efficiency).

Feel free to try it, but any difference is most likely going to be a decrease in performance, or at best placebo effect
Thats exactly what i was going to say lol very good point.
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:15 PM #35
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I alluded to it in post #19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uziel Gal View Post
I'm not sure that the unbalanced spool really needs much assistance to move - it naturally wants to move forwards due to the pressure in the firing chamber which wants to expand, and so pushes the bolt forwards in front of it, whereas the balanced valve in a Shocker is to stay stationery until the air from the solenoid starts to push it forwards.
There may still be some advantage, but no, the Geo isn't the same as a Shocker, and you can't assume that springing the Geo will give the exact same results.
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Old 04-02-2010, 10:24 PM #36
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I was thinking about this maybe a week ago, no need since the geos don't suffer the FSDO or drop off issues that say a Shocker might have.
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:14 AM #37
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Hello everyone

I have'nt read every single line in this thread. But in my opinion this mod will just unbalance the drivesystem and slow down backward boltmovement.
I can't really see any advantages in adding such a spring in the geo setup.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:00 PM #38
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LOL..I "hear" the same thing too...BUT, I'm not sure if it is a 'mechanical spring' or a 'spring effect' due to say a 'pocket of air' which the bolt 'floats on' in the return stop area (kinda like the air 'cushion' with the Zick kits on Ego's) - - which I "hear" has a DRAMATIC affect on the kick of the Geo2!..

I've "heard" that one particular person who was shooting a 'prototype' Geo2 at practice in Phoenix actually brought the gun back to PE and thought the velocity was extremely low after the first game......they checked it...and 3 shots all ~ 290fps +/- 3! SOO the "lack of kick" in comparison to the current Geo's made him think the gun was only shooting ~ 220-240 fps!......Now that's impressive!!.. Not to mention the fact that the efficiency was up by about 3 pods per fill (which I'm assuming was a 68 tank) vs the current Geo w/GST.

I have a feeling the reviews of the Geo2 are going to be NOTHING BUT POSITIVE!!..

.
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:03 AM #39
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Dang europeans... you guys always get to play with Planet Eclipse goodies first.
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:08 AM #40
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Well, they ARE right down the way... lol.
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:16 AM #41
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Mate... Just be glade u not at australia...we get the good stuffs last
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:23 AM #42
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Lol. Aww... poor Oki.... waitagoshdangminute!!! Pretty sure you guys are ahead of us on getting new stuff. We gotta order from the US to get stuff at all.
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