Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-31-2010, 04:49 PM #1
ismet
Jerkin' the Gerkin
 
ismet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA
ismet plays in the APPA D5 division
Spring loaded bolt for GST/GR2?

I was wondering if anyone has tried to spring load their GEO bolt? Same principle applies if you ever spring loaded your shocker. (SFT or NXT)

I was looking at the GEO bolt saw that you can fit a small spring over the wiener of the prop shaft and that'll go on the outside diameter of the bolt. (speaking for the GST and GR2 bolts.)

I know for sure that if a spring can fit there, it'll scratch the prop shaft for sure.

Any thoughts?

Link to shocker mod: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2693842

__________________

www.USPN.biz

831.636.8877
www.faceblastpaintball.com
408.988.3272
Gloss Red Bob Long Victory with Virtue OLED f/s/t Axe's + $$$ COME!

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=73494726#post73494726

Last edited by ismet : 03-31-2010 at 05:39 PM.
ismet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 03-31-2010, 07:45 PM #2
Brules
MFCEO
 
Brules's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 405
Annual Supporting Member
Brules is Boss
Interesting.....most interesting.
__________________
Who knew you could bottle the scent of boner? - Kenny Powers
Kenny Powers plays in RAZA Gear!
Brules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2010, 07:57 PM #3
Sacred Disorder
!!!Drive Monkey Drive!!!
 
Sacred Disorder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Petersburg, Michigan
Annual Supporting Member
Sacred Disorder is BST Trusted
Sacred Disorder helped look for balloons
Sacred Disorder owns a Planet Eclipse SLS
Sacred Disorder owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
Sacred Disorder owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Sacred Disorder supports Team VICIOUS
Sacred Disorder plays in the APPA D5 division
Since GEO's don't have the same FSDO or bolt stick problems that Shockers do im not sure if this will have too much of a performance impact. Before I rebuilt my geo I was running the dwell as low as 8 and normally around 8.5-9. I imagine that I could drop it one or two more MS and still get a full cycle but would have to compensate on the HPR. Would be intersting to try though. If I can find a spring ill try it out. Do you know what that spring is from?
__________________
Ballin For 120

Sponsored by T-Square Paintball

Sacred Disorder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2010, 08:07 PM #4
ismet
Jerkin' the Gerkin
 
ismet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA
ismet plays in the APPA D5 division
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacred Disorder View Post
Since GEO's don't have the same FSDO or bolt stick problems that Shockers do im not sure if this will have too much of a performance impact. Before I rebuilt my geo I was running the dwell as low as 8 and normally around 8.5-9. I imagine that I could drop it one or two more MS and still get a full cycle but would have to compensate on the HPR. Would be intersting to try though. If I can find a spring ill try it out. Do you know what that spring is from?
Interesting.

I don't know know what spring I have, but I needed to trim it. I aired up the gun with the trimmed spring and I got the dwell to 7.0 ms until the shot got too loud for my ears. (I was dryfiring btw; no paint.)

I took out the spring because the bolt had a small leak down the barrel. (probably the spring was moving around a lot.)
__________________

www.USPN.biz

831.636.8877
www.faceblastpaintball.com
408.988.3272
Gloss Red Bob Long Victory with Virtue OLED f/s/t Axe's + $$$ COME!

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=73494726#post73494726
ismet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2010, 08:15 PM #5
Sacred Disorder
!!!Drive Monkey Drive!!!
 
Sacred Disorder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Petersburg, Michigan
Annual Supporting Member
Sacred Disorder is BST Trusted
Sacred Disorder helped look for balloons
Sacred Disorder owns a Planet Eclipse SLS
Sacred Disorder owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
Sacred Disorder owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Sacred Disorder supports Team VICIOUS
Sacred Disorder plays in the APPA D5 division
Thats interesting. It wouldnt be to hard to mill a little ridge inside the bolt for the spring to sit on. Thanks alot now i got my geo in peices and im searching my garage for a spring. I think I might have found an old RC car spring that will work.
__________________
Ballin For 120

Sponsored by T-Square Paintball

Sacred Disorder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2010, 08:54 PM #6
Staska
 
 
Staska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
 has been a member for 10 years
It's always fun to mess around, but honestly I would see no reason to have this done to a Geo. I never suffered from any FSDO or bolt stick when I had my Geo and maybe have seen two threads about it since I've frequented the Geo forum. That was mainly because of people putting way too much lube on the bolt. If you see any immense gains I'd be suprised, but by all means give it a go!
Staska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2010, 09:53 PM #7
Ragin Cajun
CLICK, CLICK, BOOM
 
Ragin Cajun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South Louisiana
Annual Supporting Member
Ragin Cajun is a founding member
Ragin Cajun is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
Ragin Cajun is a Forum Captain
It could yield better efficiency if you could get the dwell low enough.
Ragin Cajun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2010, 10:23 PM #8
Staska
 
 
Staska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
 has been a member for 10 years
I guess it could, I wonder how it would effect people using the GST can though. I know it's not exactly the same as a feather touch in a Luxe, but the GST does slow the bolt down. I don't know maybe I'm just speculating.
Staska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2010, 11:08 PM #9
texaspaintballplpaye
 
 
texaspaintballplpaye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Annual Supporting Member
texaspaintballplpaye is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
texaspaintballplpaye is a Paintball photographer
Correct the GST does slow the bolt down.

If you look around the can of your normal bolt, you'll notice those holes in between the two o-rings on the exterior. The GST kit has one I believe. It is restricting air flow.
texaspaintballplpaye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 02:31 AM #10
viperashes
DON'T GIVE A ****
 
viperashes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Terrell, TX
viperashes is Legendary
viperashes is attending Decay of Nations VII
I'm also interested in this mod. I'm always curious about how people tinker with their stuff.
__________________
~::aut viam inveniam aut faciam::~

"**** it. You only live once. You can't take your money with you, so spend it on **** you want. You can't take your **** with you, so make sure you break it before you leave." - Me

Lefties make it looser
viperashes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 03:20 AM #11
c4l2ps
I'm a US Soldier!
 
c4l2ps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Columbia, SC
Annual Supporting Member
c4l2ps supports Cereal Killerz 2
c4l2ps owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
c4l2ps supports Team VICIOUS
c4l2ps is for the Gunfight
c4l2ps supports Bob Gurnsey
c4l2ps supports our troops
when i did the mod to my shocker, it made my gat a beast. i never had problems with my shocker before i did it, but it made the gun smoother, and way better on air.... it was the best up i had on that marker....
__________________
Proudly Sponsored By: DSSP8NTBALL.COM, PHREEK IND, 2die4.de, TANKED, DamagE
DPL 2ND BUNDESLIGA
Rock'in a DM7 &
GEO3
c4l2ps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 06:29 AM #12
Uziel Gal
It's not a Geo2, honest..
 
Uziel Gal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London, UK
Uziel Gal donated to help Peyton Trent
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Uziel Gal supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacred Disorder View Post
Thats interesting. It wouldnt be to hard to mill a little ridge inside the bolt for the spring to sit on.
I've not actually checked the ST bolt, but if you look inside the back of the stock bolt, you'll see that the bolt is machined with three different diameters, so there is already a shelf about 1/2-2/3 of the way in that could capture the end of a spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun View Post
It could yield better efficiency if you could get the dwell low enough.
That's a hard one to judge really. While the Shocker mod has shown that efficiency increases are certainly possible, reduced dwell in and of itself does not necessarily indicate an increase in performance.

If you think of the stock bolt as having a stock dwell of 12.5ms, and let's say for sake of argument that that breaks down as 4.5ms for the bolt to move forwards, and so 8ms is left over for air to flow. Please don't read anything in to these figures, they are totally made up and purely for example.

So, you add a spring, and presumably the additional force of the spring will now allow the bolt to open a little quicker. Again, purely for example, let's say that the bolt can now open in 2.5ms, and your dwell has dropped to 10.5ms. If that were the case, although your dwell is now lower, you still have 8ms dwell left for air to flow.

OK, that is only one possible outcome, but I'm just trying to demonstrate that a drop in dwell doesn't necessarily mean a percentile increase in efficiency. Don't want anyone to get their hopes up too high. As another possibility, maybe by opening the "valve" quicker, the ball will get more of a kick than a push, and it will get up to speed quicker, allowing for less air to be used to achieve the same speed. Same basic premise, but a different outcome. Without actually trying it, it's hard to know exactly what the outcome would be - certainly there is some potential here, but no guarantees as to an increase in performance.

Funnily enough, one rumour I read recently was that the Geo2 was sprung. With the claims for increased efficiency also being rumoured, it makes you wonder, huh? But, and I emphasise this, at the moment, those are just rumours. I have no inside knowledge of the Geo2.
Uziel Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 07:11 AM #13
Ragin Cajun
CLICK, CLICK, BOOM
 
Ragin Cajun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South Louisiana
Annual Supporting Member
Ragin Cajun is a founding member
Ragin Cajun is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
Ragin Cajun is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uziel Gal View Post
I've not actually checked the ST bolt, but if you look inside the back of the stock bolt, you'll see that the bolt is machined with three different diameters, so there is already a shelf about 1/2-2/3 of the way in that could capture the end of a spring.



That's a hard one to judge really. While the Shocker mod has shown that efficiency increases are certainly possible, reduced dwell in and of itself does not necessarily indicate an increase in performance.

If you think of the stock bolt as having a stock dwell of 12.5ms, and let's say for sake of argument that that breaks down as 4.5ms for the bolt to move forwards, and so 8ms is left over for air to flow. Please don't read anything in to these figures, they are totally made up and purely for example.

So, you add a spring, and presumably the additional force of the spring will now allow the bolt to open a little quicker. Again, purely for example, let's say that the bolt can now open in 2.5ms, and your dwell has dropped to 10.5ms. If that were the case, although your dwell is now lower, you still have 8ms dwell left for air to flow.

OK, that is only one possible outcome, but I'm just trying to demonstrate that a drop in dwell doesn't necessarily mean a percentile increase in efficiency. Don't want anyone to get their hopes up too high. As another possibility, maybe by opening the "valve" quicker, the ball will get more of a kick than a push, and it will get up to speed quicker, allowing for less air to be used to achieve the same speed. Same basic premise, but a different outcome. Without actually trying it, it's hard to know exactly what the outcome would be - certainly there is some potential here, but no guarantees as to an increase in performance.

Funnily enough, one rumour I read recently was that the Geo2 was sprung. With the claims for increased efficiency also being rumoured, it makes you wonder, huh? But, and I emphasise this, at the moment, those are just rumours. I have no inside knowledge of the Geo2.
Never said it would increase performance. But, looking at what it does for shockers and being able to reduce dwell because bolt movement times are so short, there might be room for improvement. I can guarantee the air in the gun dumps much faster then the time it takes to move the bolt. Although lowering dwell and raising pressure to achieve ball speed can come with another drawback which is consistency due to noid inconsistencies.
Ragin Cajun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 07:54 AM #14
viperashes
DON'T GIVE A ****
 
viperashes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Terrell, TX
viperashes is Legendary
viperashes is attending Decay of Nations VII
Uzi - basically the gist of what I got from your theory is that you think that while it may have marginal efficiency increase, it may actually be rougher on paint handling adding a spring?
__________________
~::aut viam inveniam aut faciam::~

"**** it. You only live once. You can't take your money with you, so spend it on **** you want. You can't take your **** with you, so make sure you break it before you leave." - Me

Lefties make it looser
viperashes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 08:14 AM #15
Team Capital Offense
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Team Capital Offense owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
I think Uziel is just saying someone needs to throw a spring in their GEO in the name of science and report back! Until then everything is just pure speculation.

It's an interesting concept. and although an entirely different platform, it makes me think of my old level X automag. and that thing was certainly not rough on paint...in fact it was probably the softest on paint of any gun i have ever owned...course the spring is on the outside of the bolt in that case...
__________________
Proudly Sponsored By:
ATN Corp., Planet Eclipse, VFORCE, Full Clip USA, Flurry Industries, Tarjac Inc., Command Decisions, Splatbrothers Paintball Facebook: Team Capital Offense
Team Capital Offense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 08:31 AM #16
Invert O.G
Total Eclipse
 
Invert O.G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Va
Annual Supporting Member
Invert O.G plays in the PSP
Invert O.G supports Team VICIOUS
Invert O.G plays in the APPA D4 division
Invert O.G supports Empire
yes but the mag also uses the spring to return the bolt (much like a mini) where as here the spring is being used to move the bolt. ive seen this mod on shockers do to the horrible bolt stick issues, but geos dont seem to have that problem so im curious to see the pros and con of a spring in a geo
__________________
www.kpspaintball.com
Invert O.G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 08:59 AM #17
RichardMacdonald
Inverness ICE
 
RichardMacdonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Inverness, UK
RichardMacdonald owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
RichardMacdonald owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
RichardMacdonald has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
RichardMacdonald has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
interesting, would like to see the outcome on someones GEO and possibly a video of the results on its shooting.

I wouldnt bother doing it to my own GEO as i find it shoots sweet as
RichardMacdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 09:02 AM #18
Vicious49
Excelsior!
 
Vicious49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Northern VA
Annual Supporting Member
Vicious49 plays in the USPL
Vicious49 plays in the PSP
Vicious49 owns a Planet Eclipse SLS
Vicious49 supports Pev's Paintball
Vicious49 plays in the APPA D4 division
Vicious49 is one of the top 25 posters on PbNation
Haha. Everyone wants to see the results but no one wants to risk possibly damaging their Geo.
__________________


The best upgrade for your Ego is a new owner.
Vicious49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 09:44 AM #19
Uziel Gal
It's not a Geo2, honest..
 
Uziel Gal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London, UK
Uziel Gal donated to help Peyton Trent
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Uziel Gal supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperashes View Post
Uzi - basically the gist of what I got from your theory is that you think that while it may have marginal efficiency increase, it may actually be rougher on paint handling adding a spring?
Well, if you are referring to the example I used of the ball getting a "kick" of air rather than a "push", then yes, I guess that this might be harsher on the ball.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. My real point was that you can't *necessarily* equate a decrease in dwell with an increase in efficiency. Dwell is just the time allowed for the bolt to move forwards and stay forwards, and if that is occurring quicker (due to the force of the spring), then is it any surprise if dwell could be lower. You may just be releasing the exact same amount of air, but in a shorter time, as the bolt moved forwards quicker.

I then added the comment about different air delivery characteristics ("push" versus "kick") effecting acceleration as one possible way in which a genuine change might occur in the amount of air used to achieve a specific velocity. Not a theory as such, just me thinking aloud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Capital Offense View Post
I think Uziel is just saying someone needs to throw a spring in their GEO in the name of science and report back! Until then everything is just pure speculation.
Yep, that's it basically. We can sit and speculate as to whether there is a positive effect, what that effect will be and how it actually occurs, but until it is done, we're just guessing.

I would imagine similar effects to the spring mod in a Shocker, such as overcoming bolt stick (though as stated, that isn't normally a big issue with the Geo anyway), reducing kick (by slowing and buffering the rearward movement of the bolt), and reducing dwell (whether with or without any effect on efficiency), but again, until it is done and tested, that's just an educated guess, not a certainty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Capital Offense View Post
It's an interesting concept. and although an entirely different platform, it makes me think of my old level X automag. and that thing was certainly not rough on paint...in fact it was probably the softest on paint of any gun i have ever owned...course the spring is on the outside of the bolt in that case...
Never really had anything to do with Automags, and so while I know what the Level 10 mod was for, I don't have a handle on how it achieved it.

In comparison to Automags as a whole though, and the bolt and mainspring arrangement, this is pretty much the exact reverse, as Invert has stated: -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert O.G View Post
yes but the mag also uses the spring to return the bolt (much like a mini) where as here the spring is being used to move the bolt. ive seen this mod on shockers do to the horrible bolt stick issues, but geos dont seem to have that problem so im curious to see the pros and con of a spring in a geo
With the Automag, you have "air forward/spring back" - the spring acts to close the bolt after it has been pushed forwards, resetting the valve for the next shot.

With a sprung Shocker, you have "air + spring forward/air back" - the spring is being used purely as an assist to moving the bolt forwards.

A Geo, if this were to pan out, would also be "air + spring forward/air back". In this instance though, we're talking about an unbalanced spool, rather than a balanced spool - lots of air from the firing chamber pushing the bolt forwards, rather than a little bit of air from the solenoid.

I'm not sure that the unbalanced spool really needs much assistance to move - it naturally wants to move forwards due to the pressure in the firing chamber which wants to expand, and so pushes the bolt forwards in front of it, whereas the balanced valve in a Shocker is to stay stationery until the air from the solenoid starts to push it forwards. Still, that's just more speculation - even if the spring assistance isn't required, that isn't to say that it won't be beneficial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious49 View Post
Haha. Everyone wants to see the results but no one wants to risk possibly damaging their Geo.
You got that right.
Uziel Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 10:36 AM #20
Ragin Cajun
CLICK, CLICK, BOOM
 
Ragin Cajun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South Louisiana
Annual Supporting Member
Ragin Cajun is a founding member
Ragin Cajun is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
Ragin Cajun is a Forum Captain
If dwell is lowered to the point that the entire chamber doesn't dump you will see a reduction in fps. To get the fps back up you must increase the reg pressure. Basically it boils down to this, longer dwell equals lower pressure which equals less efficient. If you can get a higher pressure to fire the ball and use less of it then the marker becomes more efficient. My luxe mod does just that just in a slightly different way.
Ragin Cajun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2010, 11:58 AM #21
Uziel Gal
It's not a Geo2, honest..
 
Uziel Gal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London, UK
Uziel Gal donated to help Peyton Trent
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Uziel Gal supports our troops
The question then becomes whether you necessarily need to use all the air stored in the chamber to get the ball up to a specific velocity at a specific pressure, but that's a whole other story.
Uziel Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump