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Old 03-19-2010, 10:21 AM #1
Rockyboarder
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Setting up GST for Efficiency

So I am back to a Geo. However, my last Geo was less than amazing having only the GR1 and only played reball. This time, I have GST (along with GR2) and want to set up for efficiency.

I know having the VVC in all the way and a dwell of 13.5 should be the trick but I am looking for any other possible way to squeeze another pod or more out of it.

I went by NickyT's and Jack Woods little "efficiency schpeel" which helped considerably, and I don't have a different barrel so paint match is outta the question. Just wondering if there was anything at all else out there.

Thanks guys. ANd I'm stoked to be back with the Geo family
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:46 AM #2
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You can do the "dwell tune" process and see how low you can get your dwell but other than VVC all the way in, thats pretty much it
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:17 AM #3
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barrel matching, and drop velocity from 300 to 285 does help abit... I play back, and shooting 285 in big games is still possible...

I have been informed in previous threads that dwell tuning doesnt really help much with efficientcy... bummer
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:08 PM #4
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beyond what has been mentioned, squeezing any more efficiency out will either be a result of your GST breaking in and allowing you to shoot at lower dwells and matching bore/paint. A shorter barrel with as few ports as possible will also help.

if you are using reball, I assume you are shooting indoors, so you SHOULD be able to run a lower dwell (given that it is climate controlled and warm enough not to run into low dwell drop off)
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Old 03-20-2010, 10:26 PM #5
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I'm working on this too. I don't have the ST bolt yet, GR2 though. I'm currently running my dwell at about 9. Is there a reason for the GST bolts having such higher dwell settings? My Geo seems to shoot fine like this but am I just overcompensating with input pressure and reducing the efficiency more than I realize?
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Old 03-21-2010, 12:03 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noblesse_Oblige View Post
I'm working on this too. I don't have the ST bolt yet, GR2 though. I'm currently running my dwell at about 9. Is there a reason for the GST bolts having such higher dwell settings? My Geo seems to shoot fine like this but am I just overcompensating with input pressure and reducing the efficiency more than I realize?
really you have to find the balance with the GST I just leave mine at factory settings.. with a 49/4500 I can get about 5 & a hopper off a 4k hot fill


remember lower dwell doesn't always equal efficency..
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:00 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okitoki View Post
I have been informed in previous threads that dwell tuning doesnt really help much with efficientcy... bummer
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96 Ls lnteg View Post
remember lower dwell doesn't always equal efficency..
As 96 Ls lnteg stated, reducing dwell doesn't automatically mean an increase in efficiency. However, sometimes it does, so there is certainly no harm in dwell tuning and seeing what the result is.

For instance, maybe all the air in the firing chamber is released in less than 12.5ms anyway. Maybe when you are reducing the dwell, you are just cutting the dwell time down to the minimum time required to release all the air in the chamber. However, as all the air in the chamber is being released anyway, you aren't using any less air.

Maybe you have screwed the VVC in, so there is less air to be released. Maybe your dwell reduction is just the time that would have been used to release the extra air in the chamber had the VVC been all the way out. So, you have saved some air, but it is the VVC that has really made the difference, not the reduction in dwell.

Then again, maybe you don't need to use all the air stored in the chamber in order to get a ball up to speed, and maybe the VVC doesn't make a big enough difference in volume to prevent more air being used then required. In that case, shortening the dwell to prevent more air being used than necessary will save you some air.

Long story short, no, dwell tuning isn't necessarily going to save air, but under certain circumstances it will, so why not give it a go? If nothing else, reducing dwell will save battery life even if it doesn't save air. Just don't go so low as to compromise reliability or consistency, and it's all good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noblesse_Oblige View Post
I'm working on this too. I don't have the ST bolt yet, GR2 though. I'm currently running my dwell at about 9. Is there a reason for the GST bolts having such higher dwell settings? My Geo seems to shoot fine like this but am I just overcompensating with input pressure and reducing the efficiency more than I realize?
The general recommendation with dwell tuning is to set your velocity at the stock dwell setting of 12.5ms, and so get your base operating pressure. You shouldn't be changing your input pressure after that point, just changing the dwell. By setting your reg pressure up front, and then leaving it alone, you shouldn't be compensating for any velocity loss caused by reducing the dwell, by increasing the HPR pressure. If you are changing the HPR pressure during the tuning process, then you are defeating the object of dwell tuning, as you aren't just tuning the dwell.

The reason that the ST kit requires a higher dwell setting is because the bolt cycles more slowly with ST Kit that with the stock bolt and can. This is the reason why the ST Kit kicks less and makes for a smoother shot.

Let's say for sake of argument that the bolt takes 2.5ms to move forwards in the stock kit, leaving 10ms for air to flow out of the air chamber to propel the ball. Now let's say that the ST bolt takes 4.5ms to move forwards. If you still had a dwell of 12.5ms, that would only leave 8ms for air to be released to propel the ball. As such, with less air released, your velocity will drop. The ST kit requires a longer dwell to allow time for the bolt to open at it's lower cycle speed, and still have the same length of time to release air.

This goes back to the point about changes in dwell not necessarily leading to changes in the amount of air used. It's all circumstantial. In this instance, with the ST kit, a longer dwell does not mean more air being used, as the additional dwell time is not being used to release more air, but to compensate for the slower bolt speed.

As for improving efficiency, as has already been stated, a good bore to barrel fit will assist - get some more bore sizes when opportunity allows. Make sure that your bolt tip o-ring is in good condition to prevent blow back. Make sure that the pin hole behind the can o-rings is just that - a pinhole; too large a hole will lead to air loss as the bolt cycles. Make sure that the solenoid back check ball is 4.00mm or larger. Make sure that the ball is clean and undamaged.

Last edited by Uziel Gal : 03-21-2010 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 03-21-2010, 02:54 PM #8
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Thanks, that really helps. I've never been good at gun tuning. Next time I play I'll be sure to chrono at the stock dwell and tune from there. I'm curently using LurkerPB's eigenbarrel with a .679 under bore, so barrel fit won't be an issue (thing shoots lasers with good paint btw). Gun is very new and hardly even broken in so I doubt the solenoid ball or bolt can holes are a problem yet.
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Old 03-21-2010, 03:04 PM #9
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Uzi - Reducing dwell
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:16 PM #10
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:20 PM #11
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But does having a good paint/barrel match actually affect efficiency that much? I use the stock .693 bore. If I had a smaller bore to match the paint would my efficiency really go up by whole pods?
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:43 PM #12
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Pods? Maybe not, but you would certainly save air.

If you are shooting a small ball out of a large barrel, then air isn't sealed behind the ball. Some air will accelerate passed the ball and just be wasted. With that in mind, a better fit between the ball and bore can't help but save some air.
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