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Old 02-14-2010, 04:46 PM #64
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hmmm

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Originally Posted by M98custom1212 View Post
To say its the best...Thats your opinion... My dm hasn't failed me, Works great people are just lazy and don't know how to switch from summer setting to winter settings and the correct amount of lube to put on the bolt assembly. When i got my dm, I'm surprised it worked, because there was like an half an once of dow 33 on the bolt assembly.

My dm is decent on air, never give me bolt stick or fsdo well i need an allen wrench to get to the assembly.

Another "spooler" My shockers all worked with correct amount of lube and care no bolt stick fsdo etc didn't need tools cause i had hybird bolts guides.

My shocker got a case off a 68/45 but it wasnt stock by any means. My custom designed bolt and firing can, polished bolt system and spring and a lot of others things.
Dms are good guns but they're still not very efficient and they still don't have tooless parts removal, or OLED option. I shot Dms for years and they are great guns. Never had many problems with mine either but once we were reduced to 3000psi fills(usually 2000 by the end of the day) here locally........the dms had to go. As it stands there is nothing a DM can do that a clone can't.

The NT is more efficient small, and light but still has a few issues dye is working on. No OLED, and still not quite as good on air as the clone(with soft settings). It costs more too........so I still have to say the clone wins for now. When something better comes out I'll change my opinion...but for now the clone wins in my mind.
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Old 02-14-2010, 10:16 PM #65
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Originally Posted by Captain_Howdy View Post
I'm going to bet the first person that starts screwing with their Clone is back on here in about a week asking for help.
its possible, but if im willing to buy new parts if somthing were to screw up theres no big deal, im not wanting to mill windows in the gun body, or bent the trigger guard, im simply asking if anyone sees anything that needs improved so far all iv found is softer detents and give it pleanty of time to break in
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Old 02-14-2010, 10:38 PM #66
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I havent' been able to get more than a casual glance at a clone yet so I really don't know what to tell you. The gun still isn't really out in large numbers yet so ideas may be rather limited.

I suggest you find something that the gun doesn't do to your satisfaction first, then work on solving that problem.

One thing most spoolers lack is an anti roll back bolt face. They make a huge difference on brittle paint. That and a soft outer rim to make contact with the next ball in the stack easier. Maybe you could start there?
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:18 AM #67
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thanks for the input, i am in ohio so its cold and we have thicker shelled paint so iv had zero paint problems even w stock detents, so in not sure how good it is on brittle paint, but a soft face bolt is not a bad idea in general, somthing to look into for sure

and even if a mod isnt possible or reasonable for the clone, throw out some ideas for macdevs next marker
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:24 PM #68
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If I hade a lathe what I would do is:

Mill off the bit of metal at the front of the bolt that helps hold the bolt tip oring on. Take off a bit more behind the oring(as needed)

Next, drill maybe 3 holes big enough for the old style matrix rubber detents(or something similar). Small enough for the detents to snap in and hold their position(you may have to trim the detents thickness down. Next, get some of the rubber plumbing washers(with the angled face) at the hardware store that will fit round the bolt tip in your new milled space.

Drill holes in that so they match up with the outer nubs on the matrix detents(or other snap in type devices). Stretch this rubber washer over the bolt face and around the detents, so the detents will hold the rubber on. You could add some crazy glue under there for good measure.

Last but not least sand the rubber/detents down to make sure they fit as tight as the original bolt tip oring would. Voila! You have a bolt with teeth inside to prevent rollback and a rubber face to prevent ball clipping.

Does this make any sense to anyone but me? lol.
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:59 PM #69
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My A1 was silly gentle on paint. Combination of the soft bolt face and the detents holding the ball snuggly in place. Pretty good achievement for a poppet marker because they require more cycle force to open the valve.

The luxe doesn't have a soft bolt face but is extremely gentle on paint. Spool valve don't require as much cyclic force because of the nature of the valve design. Perhaps a better and easier design approach would be to stick some soft timmy detents in and experiment with a adjustable manifold. Speed customs makes em for shockers and could probably adapt the design to the clone for the right price. Also a totally reversible mod. If it doesn't work, simply put the stock manifold back in. The adjustable manifold works wonders on the shocker and luxe by allowing the user to tune cyclic force in markers with no LPR.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:40 PM #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poopresearch View Post
My A1 was silly gentle on paint. Combination of the soft bolt face and the detents holding the ball snuggly in place. Pretty good achievement for a poppet marker because they require more cycle force to open the valve.

The luxe doesn't have a soft bolt face but is extremely gentle on paint. Spool valve don't require as much cyclic force because of the nature of the valve design. Perhaps a better and easier design approach would be to stick some soft timmy detents in and experiment with a adjustable manifold. Speed customs makes em for shockers and could probably adapt the design to the clone for the right price. Also a totally reversible mod. If it doesn't work, simply put the stock manifold back in. The adjustable manifold works wonders on the shocker and luxe by allowing the user to tune cyclic force in markers with no LPR.
The manifold creates a lot of bolt stick issues though. Especially in the cold. Unless you want to be adjusting it for all weather conditions, it's best not to use a manifold. A proper bolt face would solve almost all the issues. Nicely stacked paint is rarely ever a problem.
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:53 PM #71
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Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
The manifold creates a lot of bolt stick issues though. Especially in the cold. Unless you want to be adjusting it for all weather conditions, it's best not to use a manifold. A proper bolt face would solve almost all the issues. Nicely stacked paint is rarely ever a problem.
It isn't the manifold causing the problem, it's the settings. Also, the Luxe and Shocker are notorius for stick and FSDO as it is, a MINOR slowing of the Clone or Droid firing cycle shouldn't cause any more problems than are already inherent in the design.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:02 PM #72
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That's my thinking iday but who know until someone actually does it.

Again, I don't think the rubber bolt fast is critical. Perhaps a simpler solution to the rollback situation would be creating some sort of shim/bumper system for the bolt. This bumper would control how far forder the bolt would be at the start of the firing cycle. You could set it so the bolt would be just far enough back to allow the paintball to load freely.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:54 PM #73
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Personally I'd say a combination of the "rollover" style A5 detent system and a slight cupping of the bolt with a padded rollback prevention system would be best. Having the ball rest snugly on the face of the bolt would allow the ball to be accelerated only as fast as the bolt itself, rather than just being smacked by the bolt on it's way forward.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:09 PM #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
If I hade a lathe what I would do is:

Mill off the bit of metal at the front of the bolt that helps hold the bolt tip oring on. Take off a bit more behind the oring(as needed)

Next, drill maybe 3 holes big enough for the old style matrix rubber detents(or something similar). Small enough for the detents to snap in and hold their position(you may have to trim the detents thickness down. Next, get some of the rubber plumbing washers(with the angled face) at the hardware store that will fit round the bolt tip in your new milled space.

Drill holes in that so they match up with the outer nubs on the matrix detents(or other snap in type devices). Stretch this rubber washer over the bolt face and around the detents, so the detents will hold the rubber on. You could add some crazy glue under there for good measure.

Last but not least sand the rubber/detents down to make sure they fit as tight as the original bolt tip oring would. Voila! You have a bolt with teeth inside to prevent rollback and a rubber face to prevent ball clipping.

Does this make any sense to anyone but me? lol.
That is great idea.. I have access to a lathe i meant have to try this not on a clone tho
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:54 PM #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iday10 View Post
Personally I'd say a combination of the "rollover" style A5 detent system and a slight cupping of the bolt with a padded rollback prevention system would be best. Having the ball rest snugly on the face of the bolt would allow the ball to be accelerated only as fast as the bolt itself, rather than just being smacked by the bolt on it's way forward.
My rubber face idea was more to cushion the the bolt from the next ball in the stack, rather than the chambered ball. The chambered ball is never a problem. My alien has a rubber nib where the bolt clips the stacked ball, and it works fantastic. Granted on a spooler the bolt isn't always in the same position, so you have to cushion it around the whole bolt. The inner teeth were to prevent the chambered ball from rolling back into the bolt. That would keep the stack perfectly upright.

Af for the manifold......having one creates problems because people don't know how to set them, or set them too fine so in different conditions they have issues. That's what I meant. Simpler is always better.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:21 PM #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
My rubber face idea was more to cushion the the bolt from the next ball in the stack, rather than the chambered ball. The chambered ball is never a problem. My alien has a rubber nib where the bolt clips the stacked ball, and it works fantastic. Granted on a spooler the bolt isn't always in the same position, so you have to cushion it around the whole bolt. The inner teeth were to prevent the chambered ball from rolling back into the bolt. That would keep the stack perfectly upright.

Af for the manifold......having one creates problems because people don't know how to set them, or set them too fine so in different conditions they have issues. That's what I meant. Simpler is always better.
Setting the manifolds from the factory to a safe setting with a good error-margin would likely fix that issue, as would including a basic tuning and troubleshooting guide.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:11 PM #77
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why not just shim the bolt foward somehow, like how the timmys used to be adjustable for rollback, yes u could rig a soft face im sure but to be reliable it could be tricky
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:35 PM #78
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manifold

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Originally Posted by iday10 View Post
Setting the manifolds from the factory to a safe setting with a good error-margin would likely fix that issue, as would including a basic tuning and troubleshooting guide.
You would think that........but in the luxe forum guys have nothing but problems with bolt stick due to this very issue. They all play around with the stinking manifold lol.

Shooter, you can shim it forward to a degree, but after a certain point the bolt itself can cause feeding problems. A non open face bolt, or even one with a smaller bore hole is the best solution overall. Nobody seems to want to make them for spoolers though.......which I find silly.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:21 PM #79
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I don't think the manifold is the culprit, I think it's the design.
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:32 PM #80
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You would think that........but in the luxe forum guys have nothing but problems with bolt stick due to this very issue. They all play around with the stinking manifold lol.

Shooter, you can shim it forward to a degree, but after a certain point the bolt itself can cause feeding problems. A non open face bolt, or even one with a smaller bore hole is the best solution overall. Nobody seems to want to make them for spoolers though.......which I find silly.
Roll back -just make the bolt longer
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:23 AM #81
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Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
You would think that........but in the luxe forum guys have nothing but problems with bolt stick due to this very issue. They all play around with the stinking manifold lol.

Shooter, you can shim it forward to a degree, but after a certain point the bolt itself can cause feeding problems. A non open face bolt, or even one with a smaller bore hole is the best solution overall. Nobody seems to want to make them for spoolers though.......which I find silly.
The Clone and Droid simply don't have the issues with stick and FSDO as the Luxe and Shocker. The optimal settings for either (even sans manifold) don't allow for much of any wiggle room to use against bolt stick like the MD designs do.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:14 AM #82
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if i read corectly though he was just wondering if there would be anything to be gained by a simular design to adjust how soft the bolt hit, i may have missunderstood
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:14 PM #83
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bad manifold..bad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by iday10 View Post
The Clone and Droid simply don't have the issues with stick and FSDO as the Luxe and Shocker. The optimal settings for either (even sans manifold) don't allow for much of any wiggle room to use against bolt stick like the MD designs do.
That's fine, I agree. no manifold! lol.
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Old 02-20-2010, 01:23 PM #84
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That's fine, I agree. no manifold! lol.
Oh, I'm not trying to say that, I'm just saying manifolds for the Droid/Clone will be less vulnerable to stupid people than manifolds for the Shocker. As far as Shocker manifolds go, they're one of the best upgrades for firing performance and feel, just behind a spring bolt.

On an unrelated note, would it be possible to make an adjustable manifold for a poppet valve like the earlier Borgs and the RX? I'd imagine it would work a bit like the forward/back pulse settings the old dipswitch Matrices used to have.
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