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Old 02-04-2010, 11:12 AM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyd3r. View Post
Nobody cares. I have yet to meet one player who's gear I would buy just because he was using it.
I feel this way in scenario play, but in UWL and SPPL, our games are long and dirty and we can't afford to have our stuff go down, so we do pay attention to what other top teams in competitive woodsball leagues are using (and not using) because if it is working for them, it will probably work for us, too. Competition has a way of boiling down what works and what is reliable from all the "pretty" stuff that scenario tends to get bogged down in. For instance, UWL matches are 30 minutes long, and one of the issues we been having is guns that don't have good efficiency. If we get shot out, great, we can switch tanks, but at Cali, we had a guy with a PMR run out of air with like 5 minutes left in the game because he hadn't been shot out. We can share pods, but none of us wants to run out there with a spare tank in our hands. So we put a lot of thought and research into what markers we use because they have to be really efficient. Other UWL teams are in the same boat, so we pay attention to what they are using. And we ask them what they think.
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:35 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip XIII View Post
I'm pretty confident in saying when you receive a sponsorship you still have to buy their stuff. They don't give it away for free without receiving something in exchange. So the company is selling their product to you at a reduced cost. Yes it is a reduced cost to you, due to the fact that you know how much retail is. The companies have a built in profit margin that follows their product. Yes the profit margin will be greater if they sell you direct from their website compared to them selling it to a dealer at cost.
Trip, in essence you just validated our point for us.
If they sell direct to the "sponsored" player and bypass the dealer network, are they still making a profit? Sure they are because they made a sale. However the long term effect of operating in this manner is the undermining of their dealer network which ultimately leads to decreased sales across the board. Who is going to pay MAP or even MSRP at a local retailer when they can simply ask for and get cost pricing direct from the manufacturer? Once they have established the means for securing product while bypassing the retailer, where is the prevention to dump "sponsored goods" on the open market in effect creating what is referred to in most retail industries as grey market sales. This also undermines the integrity of the brick and mortar store. Your naive if you believe that this does not happen.

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Originally Posted by Trip XIII View Post
Also the sponsorship is FREE advertisment. When a company isn't doing well the first couple of things they get rid of or decrease is their staff, and advertising. So now the company is still selling their product and making a profit which in turn is now greater because they can avoid the advertising expense.
Really? Who are they reaching with their " free advertising". The example we put forth here is a direct commentary on those teams, and I am sure you have seen them, that have no market profile beyond their home field. Again I'll ask you who are they reaching? When you talk about sponsorship as a form of advertising, you are correct, that is exactly what it is. However to derive any value from your advertising budget the formula typically looks like this, X dollars spent / X faces reached. Where is the reach on the local market team? Look at what is being expended from the company to see where your value is placed. I can almost guarantee that the majority of teams today haven't had even 1 dollar spent in actual advertising expenditures based on the simple fact that your team discount was built into the product from the get go. This should tell you how much the industry places value on the local market team. When you are in a cash in sponsorship, you really have no value other than as a individual sales figure.
This is reality. It may be hard for some people to accept it, but they aren't really that special and the industry has been lying to you just to make a sale regardless of the harm they are doing to their own sales force at large.

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George and Josh, that is one really well written post. I give you a ton of credit for this, but this topic is a double edged sword. Both sides have great arguements, and when it comes down to it, it is up to the company and what direction they want to take. If one team declines the sponsorship there will be 5 more lined up to accept.
Trip thank you for taking the time to read and reflect. I also would ask you to reflect on this point. Yes companies are free to gut the dealer network willy nilly, and at the end of the day they only have themselves to blame for the predicament they are in. However if one team rejects a sponsorship should those other five teams lining up with hands out be considered and what are the qualifying factors for consideration? Is it anything beyond do they have a pulse and a wallet, or is it they have a high profile, cross market reach with a proven track record of positive impact on the sport? Does the manufacturer have a responsibility to look out for it's business partners and the sport as a whole, or are these responsibilities waived at the point of a sale?

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Let me give you an example. Take a look at the back of your car. Is there a sticker, or something saying where you bought your car? I bet there is. Now when you sat down and talked about the price I bet you didn't include taking some money off for them to put that there. In turn it is FREE to the dealership.
While I don't think this example really fits the discussion I will answer this.
Nope, the only stickers on the back of my ride are ones I placed there to benefit Delta Paintball, Inc.
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:45 AM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyd3r. View Post
Nobody cares. I have yet to meet one player who's gear I would buy just because he was using it.
This is where you miss the boat. It isn't about buy this because they use it.
Marketing is about face time with a product.
The more people you expose to a product over time has an impact on a subliminal level. People take note on shapes and recurring images. It is how humans are wired. The recurring images hopefully over time trigger a memory when the target audience thinks about a type of product. Hopefully this trigger creates buy impulses or a desire to learn more about the product. That is the other part of sponsorships and marketing. When people have a desire to learn about the products you represent, they are looking at you to give them informed, in depth information. You never hesitate to tell anyone who would ask you how great Cousin's is correct?
If this was Sponsorship 101, you failed .
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:46 AM #25
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My personal opinion is since there is no National venue and no worldwide television audience to sell too, sponsorships are just a way to push gear. Frankly sponsorships in other sports are not there to sell gear to the players, it is to sell it to the wanna be player, the couch pilots and the up and coming stars before they discover something else.

No such audience here. So the companies are left with attempting to slice off the biggest chunk of the limited pie for themselves as possible. If that means making less to ensure the other guy makes NOTHING then so be it.

I agree there should be a higher standard but I fear that will be a long ways off.

Husker out
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:14 PM #26
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Yeah, in motocross the old adage was, "What wins on Sunday sells on Monday". I don't think that holds true for scenario paintball. Most of the paintball market is driven by hype, not results.

I think I know how the OP feels, though. I see teams with a list of sponsors on their page that makes me say, "why?...How?..." Others make sense. A team like the Hellions command a lot of respect among Mil-Sim teams, and I could see a lot of Mil-Sim players paying attention to what gear they are using because Hellions have a reputation for really caring about how they play the game. Its reasonable to assume that they out a lot of thought into who's gear they represent. Then there is "Bob's Archangels of Doom" (apologies if there really is a Bob's Archangels of Doom") who play a few local games and have a list of sponsors a page long. Come on. And if I see one more team list Animal as a sponsor, Ima go on a shooting spree. Its a group discount people! Everyone gets it.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:39 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan 03 View Post
Yeah, in motocross the old adage was, "What wins on Sunday sells on Monday". I don't think that holds true for scenario paintball. Most of the paintball market is driven by hype, not results.

I think I know how the OP feels, though. I see teams with a list of sponsors on their page that makes me say, "why?...How?..." Others make sense. A team like the Hellions command a lot of respect among Mil-Sim teams, and I could see a lot of Mil-Sim players paying attention to what gear they are using because Hellions have a reputation for really caring about how they play the game. Its reasonable to assume that they out a lot of thought into who's gear they represent. Then there is "Bob's Archangels of Doom" (apologies if there really is a Bob's Archangels of Doom") who play a few local games and have a list of sponsors a page long. Come on. And if I see one more team list Animal as a sponsor, Ima go on a shooting spree. Its a group discount people! Everyone gets it.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:50 PM #28
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I'm with Foote. Maybe once sponsorship was a mark of hard work and dedication. But now it is confused with legitimacy in the paintball world, and a way for "Bob's"-type teams to stroke their egos and puff out their chests, when in reality they're getting maybe a 10% discount on gear and a free gun from sponsor X to reinforce the subliminal repetition of product placement at awards ceremonies (see shadawg).

My guns are 5-10 years old. I change my mask when I need to. I go with what works and what is comfortable and I am not concerned the least in having a 'sponsorship.' On the other hand, last year I got 6 brand new people to start playing the sport on a regular basis. They all had to go out and buy gear, which I advised several of them to do from local dealers rather than the net. I ran with Barney, Tack, Cilio, on multiple occasions. Do I think Barney and Dave are entitled to their sponsorships? Absolutely. They work their ***** off.
Do I think Tack, without so much as a hooah pack to hand out, is less of a player, or for that matter that Dave or Barney would be less without sponsorships? Nope.


Do I think all the Bobs out there who are unfit, sit around the command tent, talk an unbearable amount of talk, are somehow equally legitimate because they have enough sponsors to paint themselves up like a NASCAR? hell no.

Would i buy something that "Bobs" told me was absolutely awesome, especially if I mention their name at the retailer? Hell no again.

Would I listen to Tack or Dave or Barney about a product that they use and trust? Absolutely. But there is far more to learn from them about the game, play, tactics, motivation, wisdom and dedication than about which marker I should buy. I've never talked product with any of them. Barney is equally effective with radio as a marker. Dave and Tack without an SP1 or an A5 would be equally murderous with pumps... as you shall soon see.


That fact cheapens the idea of sponsorship. Dave's right. You can hand out true rewards, placing trust in a player to represent you and supporting him or her... or you can hand out purple participation awards that say "thanks for using our product, you can have it at a slightly marked down price straight from the warehouse and advertise us shamelessly to all the players out there who dream of being sponsored"


I buy what works for me, what I can afford, and I try to buy it locally when I can. And I don't give a hoot if you're sponsored by anyone. Your play is all I care about. Until that far off distant day when the sport is big enough and popular enough that people are paid to travel and play, sponsorship is just as foote has described it. That day might be a pipedream, but there is a stark difference between rewarding hard working players with true financial assistance to further the sport and the products of whatever company sponsors them, and handing out 10% discounts to all the "Bob's."


Dave's right. Foote's right. Shadawgs right.

I apologize if there are hard working teams that feel left out. I used Barney, Dave and Tack because I've stood beside them and seen how much they put in, ''sponsored'' or not. I'm sure you know if you've actually earned your colors.

But there are fewer hardworking teams out there than there are "Bobs" toting their sponsorships like hard-won medals or championship trophies. Wake up.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:51 PM #29
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The whole discussion comes down to the definition of "sponorship." For me a true sponsorship is an agreement between two parties where one recieves product with no out of pocket expense in exchange for something the sponsor finds valuable. This could be media coverage, brand development, name recognition, etc. It is not just receiving "free" product. If the deal is a reduced cost that isn't a sponsorship it is a group or volume discount. Which in the long run is hurting the retailers out there.

Another problem that can occur, and thankfully it hasn't been too bad in Scenario comes from the player who has been playing for a few months and gets one of these deals and thinks he is the next superstar and can't believe a ref made that call or that player must of cheated in order to eliminate him because he is a "sponsored" player.

If I see a person that I respect and trust using a product that I am interested in I will ask their opinion. I don't care if they paid full price, recieved a discount, or got it "free." And since I trust that person I would expect to receive an unbiased opinion for that product.

If the group / volume discounts bother you, what do you do? You could boycot the companies that are providing the discounts, make sure you support your local store because the sport needs these places to stick around, and prove the point on the field, that just because your jersey has a companie's name on the back doesn't mean you can play as good as you think you can.

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Old 02-04-2010, 01:06 PM #30
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well put together post to begin with.
some people get it and some dont.
i would like to see another thread with a discussion about if this is your Team or not. I'm sure some people are reading this wondering if this is their Team.

Spartan 03 said:

Quote:
Yeah, in motocross the old adage was, "What wins on Sunday sells on Monday". I don't think that holds true for scenario paintball. Most of the paintball market is driven by hype, not results.
this does still exist, of course its not as large as it could be, its done on a much more personal level though. I personally have seen and done this exact thing a ton over the last year or so.

Spartan 03 said:

Quote:
I feel this way in scenario play, but in UWL and SPPL, our games are long and dirty and we can't afford to have our stuff go down, so we do pay attention to what other top teams in competitive woodsball leagues are using (and not using) because if it is working for them, it will probably work for us, too. Competition has a way of boiling down what works and what is reliable from all the "pretty" stuff that scenario tends to get bogged down in. For instance, UWL matches are 30 minutes long, and one of the issues we been having is guns that don't have good efficiency. If we get shot out, great, we can switch tanks, but at Cali, we had a guy with a PMR run out of air with like 5 minutes left in the game because he hadn't been shot out. We can share pods, but none of us wants to run out there with a spare tank in our hands. So we put a lot of thought and research into what markers we use because they have to be really efficient. Other UWL teams are in the same boat, so we pay attention to what they are using. And we ask them what they think.
i agree with what your saying and feel the same way. the question is are we getting that message across to other players ? and also, what is the best way to do that ? are we doing all can do ? both areas are ripe for the picking for the right people.
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:10 PM #31
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This is a great thread. Love the discussion and point of fews. Thank you Josh and George for something on point.
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:14 PM #32
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There are two types of "sponsorship" Truly being sponsored, and being a billboard advertisement. Unless you are getting box mailed to you ever year with the newest equipment and not not having to pay a single dime for it, Your a walking billboard. Period. End. Fin'

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Old 02-04-2010, 01:15 PM #33
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Swifty-ESP said:

Quote:
The whole discussion comes down to the definition of "sponorship." For me a true sponsorship is an agreement between two parties where one recieves product with no out of pocket expense in exchange for something the sponsor finds valuable. This could be media coverage, brand development, name recognition, etc. It is not just receiving "free" product. If the deal is a reduced cost that isn't a sponsorship it is a group or volume discount. Which in the long run is hurting the retailers out there.
i think before we can establish what the definition of a sponsorship is we need to establish if the current definition used in other areas of the sport or even other sports applies to Scenario paintball. nobody here gets paid to pay paintball, everyone here holds a m-f 9-5 type job to fund our playing. some might get perks for playing or making events but if we still have to do something else for a living that definition of "sponsorship" that exists everywhere else doesnt apply to us.

that doesnt change the fact that the companies could still be undercutting themselves but it would determine if were comparing apples to apples.
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:26 PM #34
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Industry problem I might take a stab at is, 1. State of Economy everywhere
and 2. in the smart parts case, piss poor equipment, and they are not alone but they are probably the largest distributor of pure crap paintball products. Hey! that sort of rolls off the tongue nice. PCPP

Sponsorship used to be an honor, but in defense of the industry handing half assed ones out to everyone , it somewhat seems to make sense. When they do that, it creates several groups that feel like they need to be loyal. Those groups want to bragg about thier "sponsorships" and so on and so forth.....

The thing that hurts sponsored "scenario paintball" teams (other than the two mentioned previously), is that there is not a pro league. So the people getting the half assed sponsors are playing in the same games and exposing the products in the same manner. It's not a matter of your skill on the feild, is more of a matter of how vocal and likeable you are off the feild while socializing.

I can say I would never buy something just because someone else is using it, like the fellow up top said, but that doesn't hold true for everyone, especially for kids getting into the sport.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:22 PM #35
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:39 PM #36
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Trip, in essence you just validated our point for us.
If they sell direct to the "sponsored" player and bypass the dealer network, are they still making a profit? Sure they are because they made a sale. However the long term effect of operating in this manner is the undermining of their dealer network which ultimately leads to decreased sales across the board. Who is going to pay MAP or even MSRP at a local retailer when they can simply ask for and get cost pricing direct from the manufacturer? Once they have established the means for securing product while bypassing the retailer, where is the prevention to dump "sponsored goods" on the open market in effect creating what is referred to in most retail industries as grey market sales. This also undermines the integrity of the brick and mortar store. Your naive if you believe that this does not happen.
I think sponsorships are a joke, and people that feel the need to send out press releases to validate themselves are sad and funny. That said, who cares about the brick & mortar stores? It's not the manufacturers responsibility to support them. Never has been. Direct sales of goods is not a gray market. A direct sale is just that, a direct sale. It doesn't particularly matter if they label it a sponsorship or a discount. Sponsorship is a misleading title, but the effect is the same.

If brick & mortar stores can't adapt by offering unique services, then they simply don't deserve to stay afloat. Most customers aren't loyal to stores anyways. They're loyal to brands. Internet sales have already proven this.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:53 PM #37
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Quote:
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i would like to see another thread with a discussion about if this is your Team or not. I'm sure some people are reading this wondering if this is their Team.
We've been and sometimes are both. We've gotten the "group discounts" and, far more rarely but certainly far more enjoyably, we've had sponsors pay for us to play. (Not pay us to play, but pay for us to play. We aren't pro by anyones definition.) Sponsorship is a tricky thing. Its very flattering to have a company say they are interested in "sponsoring" your team. It smells like validation. In that warm fuzzy glow, its hard to ask important questions like, "Do I need one of these? Would I have bought one of these if this offer hadn't come? Would I have bought this brand if this offer hadn't come?" We've turned down offers by industry leading companies because it just didn't make any sense to say yes, other than to stroke our egos. Others have made a lot of sense to us and we make sure we earn that sponsorship every time we take the field (or the forum, haha).
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:54 PM #38
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I think sponsorships are a joke, and people that feel the need to send out press releases to validate themselves are sad and funny. That said, who cares about the brick & mortar stores? It's not the manufacturers responsibility to support them. Never has been. Direct sales of goods is not a gray market. A direct sale is just that, a direct sale. It doesn't particularly matter if they label it a sponsorship or a discount. Sponsorship is a misleading title, but the effect is the same.

If brick & mortar stores can't adapt by offering unique services, then they simply don't deserve to stay afloat. Most customers aren't loyal to stores anyways. They're loyal to brands. Internet sales have already proven this.
No direct sales that are in turn resold by non authorized dealers are a gray market sale, which just looking here in the B/s/t you can see examples of every day. The point is you need to care about the brick and mortar store. By under cutting your dealers your lower the profit potential, as your competitors lower their direct sales pricing to combat your already low direct sales, they in turn are slicing their own throats. This is one of the reasons that the industry in the state of affairs it is in. A healthy dealer network leads to a healthy industry. Adaptation is surely a key to the retailers health, but in an era where equipment is disposable due to the low cost factor, what incentive for the specialized services does a dealer have? Especially when the manufacturers are cutting the throats of the stores to boot. ever hear about 1800 paintball and it's effect on the dealer network?
In the current state of affairs, sponsorships are a joke. A joke on those who don't understand what is being offered and how it is being sold to them.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:57 PM #39
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Originally Posted by indy007 View Post
I think sponsorships are a joke, and people that feel the need to send out press releases to validate themselves are sad and funny.
Press Releases irritate me almost as much as people posting their schedules here (another peeve of mine), but I can understand it, and we've done it ourselves. Arguably when you say yes to a sponsorship, you are saying yes to promoting them every chance you get. PR's are usually the first and most natural opportunity to start that process and not doing it can be looked on as not caring about your sponsor. So, I don't like them, but I'll do one to get a sponsors name out there. Every time. You just won't find our 2010 schedule up here.
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:07 PM #40
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Originally Posted by shadawg View Post
This is where you miss the boat. It isn't about buy this because they use it.
Marketing is about face time with a product.
The more people you expose to a product over time has an impact on a subliminal level. People take note on shapes and recurring images. It is how humans are wired. The recurring images hopefully over time trigger a memory when the target audience thinks about a type of product. Hopefully this trigger creates buy impulses or a desire to learn more about the product. That is the other part of sponsorships and marketing. When people have a desire to learn about the products you represent, they are looking at you to give them informed, in depth information. You never hesitate to tell anyone who would ask you how great Cousin's is correct?
If this was Sponsorship 101, you failed .
First off great post. A perfect example of what shadawg is talking about is bridgestone and the superbowl. i just saw an article that said profits for bridgestone in the first quater after ther superbowl each year that they have sponsered the half time show have been up where other tire makers take a hit all because there logo is incorperated into everything dealing with those twelve minutes in the most watched game of the year. the more you see a product the or a logo the more you are going to be inclined to ask about. it sucks that you dont have to be the "best" at what you do anymore to be sponsored you just have to show up and be willing to wear there name. in time like these people are trying to save a buck anywhere and bussiness want to get there names out there anyway possable and it sucks

i do get the point of the post even if it dosent sound right. im bad with words sometimes
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Last edited by bgr3118 : 02-04-2010 at 03:09 PM. Reason: After thought
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:09 PM #41
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Because we're INTELLECTUALS in addition to paintballers......

Loving all the responses......
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:12 PM #42
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Just another reason why "Delta Leads the Way"

Because we're INTELLECTUALS in addition to paintballers......

Loving all the responses......
Not you .lol....
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