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Old 02-08-2010, 11:40 AM #106
hsilman
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Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
I am going to say you develop a want. You come up with some bull**** on why picking one is better than the other. I am saying without a want it would be impossible to make a choice. In this situation, you won't pick either one until you come up with a reason (followed by a want) why you should pick one or the other.

I have been in this exact same situation where two are identical and it doesn't matter which I pick. And as dumb as it sounds, every time I try to come up with a reason why I should choose on or another. Regardless, I still know that feeling. It's like you freeze.
so you develop a want. If you come up with a want, then they aren't predetermined and you are in control of at least some of your wants.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:44 AM #107
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this may help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Freedom_of_the_Will
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:51 AM #108
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Your reasoning for those wants, and therefore the wants themselves are certainly at least somewhat predetermined by conditioning and perhaps even biological factors. I think to say that we either do or don't have freewill is folly. We are confined by certain parameters with respect to our decisions and therefore lack a certain amount of control. However at the same time, we are faced with multiple choices that our conditioning may or may not have control over. Even if freewill isn't in play, it doesn't mean we are totally controlled by our environment. It may also just be evidence for randomness.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:53 AM #109
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pretty sure I already mentioned that lol
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:27 PM #110
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so you develop a want. If you come up with a want, then they aren't predetermined and you are in control of at least some of your wants.
quick post:

I develop a want out of a want to decide.

Edit: I don't fully understand this last paragraph. any help?

Quote:
After explaining how acts follow with strict necessity from a given character and its response to different motives, Schopenhauer addressed the question of moral freedom and responsibility. Everyone has a feeling of the responsibility for what they do. They feel accountable for their actions. They are certain that they themselves have done their deeds. In order to have acted differently, a person would have had to be entirely different. Schopenhauer claimed that the necessity of our actions can coexist with the feeling of freedom and responsibility in a way that was explained by Kant. In his Critique of Pure Reason (A533-558) and Critique of Practical Reason (Ch. III), Kant explained this coexistence. When a person has a mental picture of himself as a phenomenon existing in the experienced world, his acts appear to be strictly determined by motives that affect his character. This is empirical necessity. But when that person feels his inner being as a thing-in-itself, not phenomenon, he feels free. According to Schopenhauer, this is because the inner being or thing-in-itself is called will. This word "will" designates the closest analogy to that which is felt as the inner being and essence of a person. When we feel our freedom, we are feeling our inner essence and being, which is a transcendentally free will. The will is free, but only in itself and other than as its appearance in an observer's mind. When it appears in an observer's mind, as the experienced world, the will does not appear free. But because of this transcendental freedom, as opposed to empirical necessity, every act and deed is a person's own responsibility. We have responsibility for our acts because what we are is a result of our inner essence and being, which is a transcendentally free will. We are what our own transcendental will has made us.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:03 PM #111
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Lol. This is really bad lol.
why?
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:07 PM #112
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Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
quick post:

I develop a want out of a want to decide.

Edit: I don't fully understand this last paragraph. any help?
he is basically saying we are determined to believe we are free, regardless of the truth of the matter. It's part of our innate character, therefore we are held responsible as free even if we aren't.

I dunno, the example I was given had something to do with a courtroom, and the kid who brought it up is an idiot, so no one really paid attention.

edit: now I remember. Ok, basically, it is in our predetermined character to feel responsible for our actions. This feeling is a factor in our decisions, and if we didn't feel this way, we would have acted differently. Therefore, we can be held responsible for our actions because our feelings of responsibility impacted said actions. The "real truth" of the matter is moot when determining moral culpability.
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Last edited by hsilman : 02-08-2010 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:18 PM #113
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edit: now I remember. Ok, basically, it is in our predetermined character to feel responsible for our actions. This feeling is a factor in our decisions, and if we didn't feel this way, we would have acted differently. Therefore, we can be held responsible for our actions because our feelings of responsibility impacted said actions. The "real truth" of the matter is moot when determining moral culpability.
that's damn good.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:23 PM #114
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yeah for a pragmatist its fine, but if we're going to ignore inconvenient factors when talking about free will, why bother talking about it at all?
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:39 PM #115
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yeah for a pragmatist its fine, but if we're going to ignore inconvenient factors when talking about free will, why bother talking about it at all?
Well it sounds like there is a combination of the ideas of free will and moral responsibility. I want to disagree that these are in fact the same things.

I think that free will should be discussed because it has huge metaphysical implications.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:53 PM #116
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why?
Because you haven't shown anything that goes against his argument. Conceptually your example falls right within the parameters.

"I wanted to read all the posts in this thread but i chose not to"

This is easily explained by your greater want to not read all the posts.

You can pull out that "you don't know what's going on in my mind" bull**** that you do with every other topic, but then you aren't proving anything at all. It's a total cop out and it makes the argument meaningless. You have yet to understand this.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:15 PM #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
Because you haven't shown anything that goes against his argument. Conceptually your example falls right within the parameters.

"I wanted to read all the posts in this thread but i chose not to"

This is easily explained by your greater want to not read all the posts.
One thing I'm curious about, what exactly determines which want is greater?

Other wants?

And wouldn't those wants be affected by even more wants?

Looking back on a decision it's pretty obvious which want was the greatest, but what about looking forward to an upcoming want? Trying to predict which want will be the greatest has problems. Constant new variables are being introduced which affect the order of wants. Wouldn't that make the outcome of the choice inherently unpredictable, and thus indeterminate? And if our choices are indeterminate that falls under free will.

Unless of course I'm missing something.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:18 PM #118
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One thing I'm curious about, what exactly determines which want is greater?

Other wants?

And wouldn't those wants be affected by even more wants?

Looking back on a decision it's pretty obvious which want was the greatest, but what about looking forward to an upcoming want? Trying to predict which want will be the greatest has problems. Constant new variables are being introduced which affect the order of wants. Wouldn't that make the outcome of the choice inherently unpredictable, and thus indeterminate? And if our choices are indeterminate that falls under free will.

Unless of course I'm missing something.
even if they were unpredictable, you still wouldn't have control over them.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:27 PM #119
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Quote:
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even if they were unpredictable, you still wouldn't have control over them.
How about controlling when the decision is made? The wants are constantly in flux, changing from instant to instant. An instant earlier or later and the greater want is completely different.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:47 PM #120
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I wanted to read all the posts in this thread. I chose not to.
I don't think so. Obviously, if you cared at all about this discussion, you would unconditionally want to read the posts to determine the progress made thus far.

Because you responded, I assume you care about the topic. Therefore, if you didn't read the posts, it was because you didn't want to.
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no. let's look at it what I said.
I wanted to read al the posts in this thread. but I chose not to.
I didn't have a need to read the posts, I wanted to.
you, nor anyone else can tell me what I want is not real or anything more or less than a want. you may try to extrapolate from y lifestyle, if you knew that much, but otherwise you wouldn't be able to know for sure, becuase you aren't me.

My point isn't to prove there is free will, but rather the logic of the original premis/post doesn't work to prove it doesn't.
Your "logic" basically says that because you say something, it is true. And even if you did truly believe it, logic practically blows your argument out of the water. It certainly doesn't disprove the OP's premise because obviously, your either lying or your logic is flawed. You may have wanted to read all the posts in the thread, but at the time or circumstances, you didn't want to read them more than you did.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:56 PM #121
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I have free will.

Because of the chaotic nature of the world, nothing is set in stone until it happens. For example, when examining a collection of particles, their motion is by definition chaotic, there is no way to know, predict, or predispose them to do any one thing. This eventually leads to the idea of entropy, and why I don't believe that the complex systems in the world have any predetermined outcome.

But no, I'm not going to debate evolution, so don't even bring it up.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:04 PM #122
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I have free will.

Because of the chaotic nature of the world, nothing is set in stone until it happens. For example, when examining a collection of particles, their motion is by definition chaotic, there is no way to know, predict, or predispose them to do any one thing. This eventually leads to the idea of entropy, and why I don't believe that the complex systems in the world have any predetermined outcome.

But no, I'm not going to debate evolution, so don't even bring it up.
k.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:25 PM #123
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Well it sounds like there is a combination of the ideas of free will and moral responsibility. I want to disagree that these are in fact the same things.

I think that free will should be discussed because it has huge metaphysical implications.
but without free will who is responsible, and for what?
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:33 AM #124
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I have free will.

Because of the chaotic nature of the world, nothing is set in stone until it happens. For example, when examining a collection of particles, their motion is by definition chaotic, there is no way to know, predict, or predispose them to do any one thing. This eventually leads to the idea of entropy, and why I don't believe that the complex systems in the world have any predetermined outcome.

But no, I'm not going to debate evolution, so don't even bring it up.
Everything happens as a result of what comes before, defined within the parameters of nature.

What happens on a quantum level is negligible.

Nature isn't random. It does what it is supposed to do based on the conditions. We ourselves create entropy because we deliberately change what nature was meant to do.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:07 AM #125
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but without free will who is responsible, and for what?
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Ok, basically, it is in our predetermined character to feel responsible for our actions. This feeling is a factor in our decisions, and if we didn't feel this way, we would have acted differently. Therefore, we can be held responsible for our actions because our feelings of responsibility impacted said actions. The "real truth" of the matter is moot when determining moral culpability.
This is good for moral responsibility, but it does not mean that you have free will.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:19 PM #126
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You cannot both say that the premise is untrue and support the argument lol.
just for the **** of it, yes an argument can be valid without being sound.

1. There is only one black man
2 The president is black
3. Barack Obama is black
Therefore Barack Obama is prsident.

This is a valid argument because it is impossibile for the premesis to be true and the conclucision false. it is not sound though because its premises aren't true
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