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Old 02-04-2010, 02:46 AM #22
Synaptic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
tell me why
Not ALL of our actions are made because of our wants...

I can, because of free will, act independently of my wants. (at least I think..)
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:59 AM #23
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Not ALL of our actions are made because of our wants...

I can, because of free will, act independently of my wants. (at least I think..)
okay, all you have to do is give me an example
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:14 AM #24
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I could think of many examples.. do you disagree that you can act independently of your wants? There are a lot of things I want to do right now. I want to drive to checkers and get a baconzilla, but I don't. I suppose you could say I also and equally do NOT want to walk out to my car and drive all the way there and spend the money on the unhealthy food. Regardless, I have the decision.

Essentially you could want to do anything and choose whether or not to do it, which is where I think the free will part comes in. There are infinite decisions to be made at any given time and I think we are at liberty to choose our actions.
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:18 AM #25
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Originally Posted by Synaptic View Post
I could think of many examples.. do you disagree that you can act independently of your wants? There are a lot of things I want to do right now. I want to drive to checkers and get a baconzilla, but I don't. I suppose you could say I also and equally do NOT want to walk out to my car and drive all the way there and spend the money on the unhealthy food. Regardless, I have the decision.

Essentially you could want to do anything and choose whether or not to do it, which is where I think the free will part comes in. There are infinite decisions to be made at any given time and I think we are at liberty to choose our actions.
You don't understand my argument
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:23 AM #26
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You don't understand my argument
What isn't there to understand about it? It's, at the very least, debatable on both premises..
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:26 AM #27
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What isn't there to understand about it? It's, at the very least, debatable on both premises..
I never thought I would do this because A, i dont blog and B, i dont play Wow but here it goes..."<sigh>"

your want to sit at home and not have to drive to checkers is greater than your want to go. i want to eat healthy, work out every day, and study my hardest, but there are many times i don't do so because my want to not to do so is greater than my want to do so
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Old 02-04-2010, 07:45 AM #28
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To OP - I may happen to agree.
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:47 AM #29
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1. All of your decisions are made because of your wants
2. You do not have control of your wants
---You do not have free will because you can not control your decisions
Even if we assume your two premises are correct, your conclusion is flawed. We often have conflicting wants/desires. It's impossible to meet conflicting wants, so a choice must be made. Free will is the act of choosing to meet one want/desire at the expense of the other(s).
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:12 AM #30
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Even if we assume your two premises are correct, your conclusion is flawed. We often have conflicting wants/desires. It's impossible to meet conflicting wants, so a choice must be made. Free will is the act of choosing to meet one want/desire at the expense of the other(s).
Nah. I forget what philosopher wrote what you said, but it was originally an argument against determinism and how conflicting wants create indeterminancies in the brain. Your argument doesn't work on this case, ultimately the greatest want is chosen. All you have to do is give me an example
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:32 AM #31
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In other words, though your argument in the OP doesn't flesh it out, you are defining 1. a want as the result of a decision, where in reality, 2. not all decisions result in the fulfillment of wants.
1. Why did you say "a want as the result of a decision" as opposed to "a decision as the result of a want."?

2. This seems pretty trivial to me in regard to the argument. Can you provide an example?


To everyone: All you have to do is provide an example in which my argument is wrong.
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Old 02-04-2010, 04:28 PM #32
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...your want to sit at home and not have to drive to checkers is greater than your want to go. i want to eat healthy, work out every day, and study my hardest, but there are many times i don't do so because my want to not to do so is greater than my want to do so
And free will is the process of determining (or choosing) which of those conflicting wants is the greater.
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Old 02-04-2010, 04:54 PM #33
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And free will is the process of determining (or choosing) which of those conflicting wants is the greater.
give me an example.
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Old 02-04-2010, 04:59 PM #34
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Two twins that are indistinguishable... which do you choose. You've never known them to exist until this point so there is no predisposition in your mind.
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:01 PM #35
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I want a baconzilla, even though I am not physically hungry in any way. how is this want not controlled by me?
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:07 PM #36
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Gandhi probably wanted a baconzilla. I'm sure his mind had the want to eat but he chose not to for a month.
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Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
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yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:32 PM #37
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Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
Two twins that are indistinguishable... which do you choose. You've never known them to exist until this point so there is no predisposition in your mind.
i am not sure how this applies

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I want a baconzilla, even though I am not physically hungry in any way. how is this want not controlled by me?
what does that mean? you want a baconzilla to play with? are you going to **** the baconzilla?

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Gandhi probably wanted a baconzilla. I'm sure his mind had the want to eat but he chose not to for a month.
still missing the point.
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:33 PM #38
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Say I choose to become a fireman, and then choose to run into a burning building. How is that not an exhibition of free will?
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:47 PM #39
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Say I choose to become a fireman, and then choose to run into a burning building. How is that not an exhibition of free will?
You choose to become a fireman because you want to be a fireman as with the burning building.

I am telling you, if you guys plan on disproving the argument this way, you never will. You won't. I am telling you right now, you will not beat the argument head on. I will give you a $1,000,000 via paypal if you do so.
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:37 PM #40
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You choose to become a fireman because you want to be a fireman as with the burning building.

I am telling you, if you guys plan on disproving the argument this way, you never will. You won't. I am telling you right now, you will not beat the argument head on. I will give you a $1,000,000 via paypal if you do so.
could you please define a want, I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean by a want.
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:40 PM #41
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i am not sure how this applies
Oh come on... If you have no bias towards a decision, you are making the decision.

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still missing the point.
How am I missing the point? Gandhi made the concisous decision to fast for a month. His biological processes were telling him to eat but he chose not to. You make it seem like every decision is made by our unconscious mind. That is not the case. I made the concious decision to reply before getting something to eat even though I haven't eaten lunch today. My wants are determined by my me. My needs are determined by my body functions. Wants and needs are not the same thing.

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You choose to become a fireman because you want to be a fireman as with the burning building.
He made the decision?

Tell me this, what situation is already determined for me implying I don't have free will? Give me an example of a situation where the choice is already determined because I will chose an alternative option.
If there is no free will and everything is determined how do you explain uncertainties within quantum mechanics?
You need to explain your position better. To say people have no free will and people make decisions in the same sentence doesn't make much sense.
How are you so sure every want a person has is not their individual choice? It seems, I say seems because you haven't explained anything, your argument is based by taking that statement as fact when it is not provable in any way.

I can't prove you wrong because there is nothing to prove. There is no argument to be made.
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Overbear: better 10 innocent men be convicted, than a single guilty man go free to commit more crime.
Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
MatrixBaller04 AKA EricS6661: I can guarantee something will happen between now and February 9th.
yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:44 PM #42
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Oh come on... If you have no bias towards a decision, you are making the decision.



How am I missing the point? Gandhi made the concisous decision to fast for a month. His biological processes were telling him to eat but he chose not to. You make it seem like every decision is made by our unconscious mind. That is not the case. I made the concious decision to reply before getting something to eat even though I haven't eaten lunch today. My wants are determined by my me. My needs are determined by my body functions. Wants and needs are not the same thing.



He made the decision?

Tell me this, what situation is already determined for me implying I don't have free will? Give me an example of a situation where the choice is already determined because I will chose an alternative option.
If there is no free will and everything is determined how do you explain uncertainties within quantum mechanics?
You need to explain your position better. To say people have no free will and people make decisions in the same sentence doesn't make much sense.
How are you so sure every want a person has is not their individual choice? It seems, I say seems because you haven't explained anything, your argument is based by taking that statement as fact when it is not provable in any way.

I can't prove you wrong because there is nothing to prove. There is no argument to be made.
no, you just don't understand my argument. you tried to attack my argument before you even understood it, which means that you will defend your position no matter what i say. i don't care if you understand my argument or not, those that i want to understand my argument do. if you want me to take anything you say seriously, you must first display that you understand my argument - your retorts don't imply this
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