Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-02-2010, 07:49 PM #1
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Why you don't have free will

1. All of your decisions are made because of your wants
2. You do not have control of your wants
---You do not have free will because you can not control your decisions
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys

Last edited by Laureate : 02-02-2010 at 08:32 PM.
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 02-02-2010, 08:33 PM #2
Fubarius
Yep, it's orange.
 
Fubarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New Richmond, WI
Annual Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Fubarius supports our troops
Fubarius has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius is a Forum Captain
Actually I'd say the ability to have wants is the very definition of free will. Those with out free will only have needs. A cow needs to drink water, so it drinks water where ever it happens to find it. A cow needs to eat, so it eats what's put in front of it.

We on the other hand can actually choose to starve our selves to death if we want to.
Fubarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 08:34 PM #3
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
define wants

fub: you've contradicted yourself. just because you want something bad doesn't make it not a want.

my point is this argument falls to the same fault as the ontological argument.
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 08:37 PM #4
Fubarius
Yep, it's orange.
 
Fubarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New Richmond, WI
Annual Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Fubarius supports our troops
Fubarius has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
define wants
You used it first, so lets hear your definition.

Quote:
fub: you've contradicted yourself. just because you want something bad doesn't make it not a want.
No. To eat to survive is a NEED. That's the difference. A NEED is not a WANT.
Fubarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 08:39 PM #5
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
You used it first, so lets hear your definition.



No. To eat to survive is a NEED. That's the difference. A NEED is not a WANT.
but whether or not you want to survive or you want to die, you still want something. The end result of your decisions is always a "want" since if you didn't want the outcome, you would have chose something different.

the first question was to Laureate.
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 08:44 PM #6
Fubarius
Yep, it's orange.
 
Fubarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New Richmond, WI
Annual Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Fubarius supports our troops
Fubarius has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
but whether or not you want to survive or you want to die, you still want something. The end result of your decisions is always a "want" since if you didn't want the outcome, you would have chose something different.
To me that is the very definition of free will. You do what you want.

For example, say you want to hold your breath. Since you have free will you can. You can maintain it until you pass out. At that point your conscience mind shuts off leaving only the animal brain which has no free will. It needs to breath, so you start breathing again.

Quote:
the first question was to Laureate.
Yep, sorry. Trying to type while watching Lost.
Fubarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 09:43 PM #7
Crede777
Resident Agnostic
 
Crede777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Crede777 owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
I don't have free will because there is a physical system which I must operate within regardless of my wants. Just because I have a want to be able to levitate doesn't mean I can. Gravity says no. Because gravity supersedes my will, I do not have free will.
__________________
"We Fight! "We March!"
ST: P Conspiracy - It's what's for dinner
ST:R/P I ain't come from no fish!
Derr: Whether or not you believe the universe is here for a reason is patently irrelevant to whether or not the universe cares.
XBL = On3ManRi0t

Breakout Photos
Crede777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 09:45 PM #8
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I don't have free will because there is a physical system which I must operate within regardless of my wants. Just because I have a want to be able to levitate doesn't mean I can. Gravity says no. Because gravity supersedes my will, I do not have free will.
just because we recognize limitations on freedom, does that mean we erase the meaning of the word freedom all together?
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 10:13 PM #9
Aaron5604
Nothing is what it seems
 
Aaron5604's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
just because we recognize limitations on freedom, does that mean we erase the meaning of the word freedom all together?
IMO, yes...

(For example)

The very second we're born, our minds have already begun to absorb biased information. And, from that point on, every bit of our understanding of life is derived from the very sources in which we were inevitably predisposed to, beyond our "will" as a human. Thus, choice can only exist as an illusion.
__________________
"Seeing Is Believing" and Ignorance is DEFINITELY bliss.

JL Audio - 1000/1 Amp + 3 10W3V3 Subs (Enclosed) + Focal Access 130A1 Comps. for sale. PM me for details.
Aaron5604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 10:25 PM #10
Flying_Dutchman
 
 
Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I don't have free will because there is a physical system which I must operate within regardless of my wants. Just because I have a want to be able to levitate doesn't mean I can. Gravity says no. Because gravity supersedes my will, I do not have free will.

You're a good poster but this is just not a good argument. Since when did the definition of free will include the ability to do the physically impossible? Do I not have free will because I can't de-atomize and reform wherever I want?





What Laureate is trying to say is that our desires (wants) directly influence our decisions. And since we can't control our desires (meaning there's nothing in my brain pondering whether I should want the piece of cake or not. I can't help wanting the cake), then we must not have control of our decisions. If we go against our "wants" in what seems like an act of higher (free) reasoning, Laureate would likely propose that these are simply other wants overriding the ones we arbitrarily focused on for the sake of the discussion (albeit in a complex manner).


Silman, I don't believe this argument is guilty of the same fault as the OA.
Flying_Dutchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 12:30 AM #11
Crede777
Resident Agnostic
 
Crede777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Crede777 owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
I know, I was just joking.

To be serious, it's hard for me to dismiss what Laureate was saying based upon the fact that I accept Psychological and Ethical Egoism. I believe that people are always working towards what they perceive (or their subconscious perceives) to be in their own best interest and that there can be no such thing as an altruistic act. Most criticisms of Egoism I have heard focus on how the philosophy says that a person may pick something that he/she perceives would not be in his/her best interest however would allow him/her to avoid longstanding guilt or pain. I disagree with these criticisms and view taking action out of avoidance of guilt or pain (whether it's consciously recognized or not) as a valid instance of acting out of self interest.

I believe that humans instinctively avoid guilt and pain and that it's a part of our animal instinct / subconscious which we cannot avoid nor control.
__________________
"We Fight! "We March!"
ST: P Conspiracy - It's what's for dinner
ST:R/P I ain't come from no fish!
Derr: Whether or not you believe the universe is here for a reason is patently irrelevant to whether or not the universe cares.
XBL = On3ManRi0t

Breakout Photos
Crede777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 08:36 PM #12
cuttlefish32
 
 
cuttlefish32's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
It seems like the theme here is he idea that free will exists because people are influenced by their surrondings. So, what if a newborn child was placed in a empty room for his entire childhood. He wouldn't have any opinons or social conditioning to get in his way. Let's say he is also given flavorless food and water. Would he have free will?
__________________
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
-Henry Ford
cuttlefish32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 08:49 PM #13
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
It seems like the theme here is he idea that free will exists because people are influenced by their surrondings. So, what if a newborn child was placed in a empty room for his entire childhood. He wouldn't have any opinons or social conditioning to get in his way. Let's say he is also given flavorless food and water. Would he have free will?
George, good to hear from ya man! I would say no. I don't see how putting him in an empty room does not make him have wants.
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 09:13 PM #14
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
I would simply say that the argument cannot be disproved, and is therefore flawed. I'm not saying I can coherently express the exact issue that causes this to happen, but I am saying if you are not in control of your wants, and even when you want something that is counter to what you would intuitively want it is simply another want overriding whatever want you are conscious of, then it is simply an analytic statement, which is by nature circular and self defining. In other words, though your argument in the OP doesn't flesh it out, you are defining a want as the result of a decision, where in reality, not all decisions result in the fulfillment of wants.
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 10:14 PM #15
Aaron5604
Nothing is what it seems
 
Aaron5604's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
It seems like the theme here is he idea that free will exists because people are influenced by their surrondings. So, what if a newborn child was placed in a empty room for his entire childhood. He wouldn't have any opinons or social conditioning to get in his way. Let's say he is also given flavorless food and water. Would he have free will?
Maybe if such an "if" statement were possible to begin w/.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
I don't see how putting him in an empty room does not make him have wants.
Well, I think I can make sense out of that...

If (in theory) a child of any gender were to some how grow up in a 100% empty environment, than his desires (or, lack thereof...) would then formulate from where, exactly; from what physical means could he/she possibly relate too?

*Edit*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Actually I'd say the ability to have wants is the very definition of free will. Those with out free will only have needs. A cow needs to drink water, so it drinks water where ever it happens to find it. A cow needs to eat, so it eats what's put in front of it.

We on the other hand can actually choose to starve our selves to death if we want to.
After reading, I think I understand, and therefore agree w/ the differences. Though, I still don't agree w/ the "wants" as being completely "free" given that (once again) our very beginning as humans (being born) go beyond the definition of what's considered to be, "free."

Thus, at that point of insertion, (life) our thoughts pull from the early understandings in what we have gathered from the past, so that we may form a perceivable future, whether that in fact be rational in behavior or not?
__________________
"Seeing Is Believing" and Ignorance is DEFINITELY bliss.

JL Audio - 1000/1 Amp + 3 10W3V3 Subs (Enclosed) + Focal Access 130A1 Comps. for sale. PM me for details.

Last edited by Aaron5604 : 02-03-2010 at 10:27 PM.
Aaron5604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 11:35 PM #16
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
No one has posted anything of substance
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 11:43 PM #17
Fubarius
Yep, it's orange.
 
Fubarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New Richmond, WI
Annual Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Fubarius supports our troops
Fubarius has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Fubarius is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
No one has posted anything of substance
Give a clear definition of wants (as used in your original statement), and how they differ from needs.

I say your argument is meaningless, since wants and desires equal free will. Having wants means you have free will. So the argument that having wants means you don't have free will doesn't make any sense.
Fubarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 11:54 PM #18
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
No one has posted anything of substance
you're a classy gal.
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 12:54 AM #19
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Give a clear definition of wants (as used in your original statement), and how they differ from needs.

I say your argument is meaningless, since wants and desires equal free will. Having wants means you have free will. So the argument that having wants means you don't have free will doesn't make any sense.
there is no huge distinction to be made. i am not going to sit here and get into semantics.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
you're a classy gal.
lol. i can't respond to your post! it means nothing to me. if i were to respond to it would make no sense. in other words, speak as if you were talking to a fourth grader.
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 01:16 AM #20
Synaptic
antirevelation
 
Synaptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
1. All of your decisions are made because of your wants
2. You do not have control of your wants
---You do not have free will because you can not control your decisions
Premise is untrue, sorry. Valid argument though.
__________________
Reason obeys itself;
and ignorance submits to
whatever is dictated to it.
Synaptic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 01:43 AM #21
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synaptic View Post
Premise is untrue, sorry. Valid argument though.
tell me why
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump