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Old 01-24-2010, 08:53 PM #1
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DM8 Trial and Error. Important details I learned about LPR tuning.

Well guys I no longer shoot a matrix, but I am sure I will shoot one again in the future as soon as I can buy another one. However I noticed a VERY important detail about tuning the LPR and getting your gun to shoot at its absolute BEST performance.

As some of you know I did a ton of testing with the DM8 using different greases, and LPR settings all over a chronograph. I would like you guys to know some of the most important things I discovered about this gun and getting it to its top performance.

***Important detail #1... Keep the LPR seat o-ring (the little 010 o-ring on the brass adjusting screw at the back of the LPR) in TOP condition. Believe it or not, even the SLIGHTEST bit of shredding on this o-ring can cause you to have to elevate your LPR a whole lot, and prevent you from getting consistent readings over a chronograph at those lower LPR pressures you would like to run. THE MOST important thing to watch out for is that when you replace this o-ring, that your EXTREMELY careful when screwing the LPR adjustment screw back into the gun. The truth is, if you screw the LPR seat ALL THE WAY into the LPR, your going to shred this o-ring when you start backing it out to set your LPR... I would say about 85% of the time. Not enough to cause a LEAK per say... but enough to effect your performance drastically, without you even noticing it. The reason I say this is because during my testing, I was resetting the LPR from scratch EVERY time I was changing my grease out, for testing purposes. I noticed that for some reason, I was having to use higher and higher LPR pressure, and for a while I blamed it on the greases being better than one another. Now I must stress, after discovering this, I actually tried an experiment... it went as follows...I went out and bought a whole bunch of 010 o-rings for the LPR seat. I kept noticing that even after 1 or 2 grease tests, that involved me putting the LPR all the way in, then backing it out 3.5-5 turns, and testing the gun over the chronograph, I would find the LPR set o-ring shredded a bit, the next time I pulled it out. So with my new o-rings I first tried installing a brand new one and greasing the hell out of it. I turned the LPR seat all the way in until I felt it come to a snugging stop. When I would start backing it out it felt tight, then all of a sudden it would loosen. I finally came to realize that this was the feeling of the o-ring actually shredding, then the shredded piece coming off. I did this 3 times and shredded 3 different o-rings. The second and third time I tried not quite turning it in so tight, or turning it in slowly. Nothing, shredded. I realized soon, that having this o-ring in great condition was going to be a must, to achieve low LPR pressures, and amazing consistency.

SOLUTION: I had to come up with a way to adjust my LPR, KNOW how many turns out it was at (for the sake of knowing your gun is in the right Operating Pressure range), but without having to turn the LPR screw all the way in, where it inevitably seemed to suffer some shredding damage. So, its simple. I turned my LPR to 3 turns out, and counted how many turns out it was before the threads were out. I believe it was roughly 10 turns. So I changed this o-ring, greased it, and turned the seat in until I hit this point again. Just for good measure I gave it two or so more turns in and noticed it started to get tighter, but then I backed it out to where it was, knowing that a 1/2 turn or so inward would have set me back to 0, just judging by the feel. Sure enough, now I had an o-ring on my LPR seat that was in perfect condition, and set. Guess what happened...

My DM8 (known for needing 4-5 turns out) was suddenly able to run about 2.5-3 turns out, in the cold. The gun was ridiculously quiet, to the point where it felt like you HAD to be shooting low, more consistent than I've EVER seen it over the chronograph, and had no kick, I mean NO kick, as in it was completely undetectable, and NO shootdown or FSDO. Go figure... (for the record, my dwell is at 20 at the moment, due to the cold weather)

***So important detail #2... ALWAYS realize that you may have the LPR set too low to take advantage of the FPS being put out by the HPR! If your LPR is even a little bit too low and you don't know your gun all that well, Raise your LPR a little higher than it should be to see whether you gain a significant amount of FPS over the chronograph. If your LPR is even a LITTLE too low, your gun will appear to be performing erratic. Depending on what you happen to think the problem is, you may even attempt turning up your HPR. What ends up happening is you can eventually turn your HPR up enough to create symptoms that will confuse you, like leaks and such. This happened to me with my dm8, and man did it get ridiculous.


Either way the most important detail of the 2 is the first one. So,if you are someone who feels your DM is not as smooth as it should be, or not as consistent as it should be, take it apart, clean and lube the HPR, LPR, and bolt, replace your LPR seat o-ring, and tune it by turning it inward until the gun stops firing, then back it out from that point only! Don't make a habit of touching the LPR unless it needs to be touched, and DEFINITELY try not to every turn it in all the way. Believe it or not, when the screw gets snug, your probably likely to shred the o-ring EVERY single time, and not even realize it's harming the performance. Or do what I did, and count the turns from 3 turns out, to the point where the seat is out of the gun.



I'm sorry if this post seems stupid, but after all of my testing, I feel that its best for me to share with all of you the key points that truly turned my gun, from an average to mediocre DM8 at best, to an amazing shooting one. For the record, I use Lurker Lube and Monkey Poo. Either one performs great. And believe me, I've tested EVERYTHING.


Thanks guys, and I hope this post serves to help someone.
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:30 PM #2
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Good post.

I regularly tuned my dm7 by resetting the lpr to zero and stock 5 turn out to set velocity before tuning down my lpr. When zero in, some people might tune it too far in creating the cut in the reg seat... I tend to stop as soon as I feel a stiffer pressure. This may not be the true zero setting and caused my 5 turn out to be more 5.5 out, but once I tune the lpr down, I normally tuned by looking at how the bolt cycle rather than a set number of turns.
This would set the lpr to the lowest level of lpr at the set dwell/hpr combination to allow the smoothest shots I can get.

Thanks again for your post
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:55 PM #3
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Interesting info. Thanks for the post
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Old 01-24-2010, 11:10 PM #4
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Nice post...i'll def replace the o-ring on my LPR now
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:56 AM #5
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wow very interesting. i have been wondering why my dm has needed a higher lpr than ever before. in the past i was able to run my dm6 at 1-1.5

lately ive had to run it at the full 3 to even get it to seal up. and last practice i experience fsdo for the first time on my dm6.

i do turn the screw in all the way ALOT, so i am going to check out the oring tomorrow.

great post!
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:21 AM #6
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So just to clarify - this is of my DM9 LPR is it in fact this Oring in the RED?
[IMG][/IMG]

Thanks and let me know.....
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Old 01-25-2010, 09:18 AM #7
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i thought it is part #7... the seat we are talking about?
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Old 01-25-2010, 09:50 AM #8
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Yes it is the seat retainer o-ring that you have circled. #8 is the one that easily shreds. And as stated, the dm8's consistency at lower LPR's and LPR operating pressure both seem to suffer depending on what condition that o-ring is in.
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:03 AM #9
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edit: oh wait... brain not working ... withdrew statement

I do put some grease on the screw threads so that might help abit
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:21 AM #10
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Great post. Some good principles for all matrix owners.
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:39 AM #11
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Nice work.

I would like to know what Dye says about this since they recommend turning the LPR in, and then backing it out.
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:40 AM #12
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i guess it would be safer to start from zero than to start from MAX Psi on the LPR to prevent the noid being blown
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:23 PM #13
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The thing is, when you start from max and put the screw in, you should have the air off. That's the reason I emphasized counting the turns out, for those who have to know exactly where they're at. You definitely don't want to have you LPR seat all the way out and gas the marker, then start tuning the LPR down.
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:33 PM #14
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well i just changed that orings. prior i was running my lpr at 2-2.5

now once i changed this orings i could run my lpr at a hair past 1.5

i did not relube my bolt or anything, everything was exactly the same both times.

great find!
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:47 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeownyu View Post
well i just changed that orings. prior i was running my lpr at 2-2.5

now once i changed this orings i could run my lpr at a hair past 1.5

i did not relube my bolt or anything, everything was exactly the same both times.

great find!

WoW

I just cant see how that plug oring can be responsible for that. Blows me away......
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:04 PM #16
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lol i have no idea either. what was weird though was that oring on mine didnt look cut or anything. maybe alittle worn down, but idk!


i really hope this isnt one of those placebo things, where we just think our guns are running at lower pressures due to our imagination.


but really i think it has something to do with not all of the air going into the lpr. some of it is escaping from that small orings, making the higher pressure needed. idk that is just my stab in the dark.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:12 PM #17
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Yeah - Im not disagreeing with you at all, and I believe you. But to think that 1 little oring can do so much. And your theory sounds legit - if air is escaping even slightly and you dont catch it then - yeah you would have to raise the LPR pressure to compensate for the leak. (Makes sense to me)
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:57 PM #18
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Woah! Just changed the o-ring on my pm6's lpr and, indeed it allowed me to bring my lpr back down. The o-ring was shredded the first half. I was able to lower it down by half of what I was running.

I have a custom bolt mod that allows my lpr to be run extremly low 1 turn and below. So, with my lpr that low my o-ring is always in the threads of the lpr body. I switched to a size smaller too, to try to minimize damage.

Just so happens I was just woundering the other day, that my lpr was alot lower before...

Thanks for the tip!
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:24 PM #19
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No problem at all. I'm very glad to see that this is helping a few of you out there, as that was my initial intention. As far as the placebo effect, it's funny you mention that since that's what was going through my head for the first several days of testing when it finally began to occur to me. However, if it makes you feel better, I tore the bolt and the LPR down during testing, re-gassed it and chrono'd, at least 30-40 times. That's how many times it took before I realized the trending going on and how the LPR seat o-ring was related.
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:52 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_liquid3 View Post
Woah! Just changed the o-ring on my pm6's lpr and, indeed it allowed me to bring my lpr back down. The o-ring was shredded the first half. I was able to lower it down by half of what I was running.

I have a custom bolt mod that allows my lpr to be run extremly low 1 turn and below. So, with my lpr that low my o-ring is always in the threads of the lpr body. I switched to a size smaller too, to try to minimize damage.

Just so happens I was just woundering the other day, that my lpr was alot lower before...

Thanks for the tip!
yep that exact same thing was happening to me.

well i guess this is a sweet find. i wanna see what someone from dye has to say about this. i mean dm's have been out for a long time now, and if someone just know discovered it....then idk thats pretty cool.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:21 PM #21
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Well in the next week or so I intend to re-tune a few of my team's guns. I'll keep you guys up to date on what happens when i give them this same treatment.
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