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Old 10-04-2003, 10:01 PM #1
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Angry Refs At Heartland Series

Ok, I dont want to be one of those teams or players who *****es and moan about how reffing screwed them over at the tourney, which they did, but my team finished 2nd at Springfield and 4th in Indeanapolis.
First of, the Heartland Series was probably the best and most smoothly run tournament Ive ever been. The use of the god clock and the venues made these tournaments a must go event. The only problem I had was the reffing.
Ok, lets see where to begin. Oh. Our last finals game against Evil Lace. First off, Evil Lace is a good team, and I am friends with all those guys. I am in no way trying to talk **** about them, but the way that last game was reffed, it is worth talking about.
To start off with, we had a one for one penalty half way through a game for an unobvious hit. At least to me, and every tournament Ive been before this one, the visor of your goggles is an unobvious hit. There is no one that plays paintball that can tell me they can actually feel a hit on your visor of your mask during a tournament game. Maybe Im wrong about that one, if I am, my fualt, good call. Second, one of my back players was said to got hit on the back of his shoe. Kind of odd when the back of your shoe is facing away from the game and obviously not the easiest target to hit. He was called out for it. Oh by the way, there was about a couple thousand paintball on th ground in the back. Oh wait, he couldnt of stepped on one of those. Lets see, what next. Playing on. Our last player that game was hit by a Evil Lace player that was aloowed to play on. Not only did he get stitched up in the same line of paint that he shot another of their guys out, but he was bunkered by that same player to supposedly end the game. They did pull one 1-for-1 on Evil Lace, but there was at least one other guy playing one that the refs didnt pull. Blatant overshooting also ocurred at the end of the game without penalty. I saw penalties for over shooting, but my guy was stitched ion the back 10 times and no call was made. Then the arguing at the end of the game led to a -47 points for our team. Yeah, we were screaming and hot tempered at the refs, they blatantly screwed us out of the game. So, apparently one ref decided to give us penalty points. Was the other teams guys screaming to? Yeah. Possibly more than we were. Did ref take points from them? No.
A couple other things that happenned was refs telling me that if my players asked for another paint check to see if it was splatter or not, he would pull a 1-for-1. I was like What the hell are you talking about? Some of my front guys asked a ref for paint checks and the refs flat out told him no. Also, refs from across the field were making calls that were very crucial. Such as making calls in the 50 tapes from across the field.
This didnt just happen in Indy though. Calls like this were being made all throughout Springfield. We got called for a 1-for-1, again against Evil Lace, for a hit the ref didnt even see. I asked why he was pulled and the ref told me he didnt see a hit but he saw the guy flinch, so he pulled him and another guy out.
Also, I heard rumor from a team close to the refs that they were having a contest in Springfield to see which ref could get the most 1-for-1 calls, or the most out of bounds calls? I heard this and was angry as hell. This could be untrue, but this team seemed like they knew the refs pretty well. If this is true, those refs need to be kicked the hell out of ever reffing any tournaments ever again.
It wasnt this bad at all at the beginning of the day. It seemed like they decided to piss people off and make, or not make calls only during semis and finals of the two tournaments.
All I am trying to say is to PLEASE get some better refs. The tournaments are awesome, but they are brought down so much by the poor quality of the refs. I have to say they did good job at clenaing up the fields between games, but when it came down to making serious calls, they could not cope, and decided to take the easy way out.
So please, please consider possibly widening your options on who refs the series tournaments next year.
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Old 10-05-2003, 01:07 PM #2
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Hey guys, thanks for letting us know your thoughts on the reffing. We strive to bring the best reffing we can find and have paid top dollar to bring in the best reffing from other leagues. If you ever feel that a particular ref is not doing his job, let the ultimate ref know his jersey number and what happened. If he gets enough complaints about a specific ref, steps will be taken to correct the problem.

Obviously, the players are going to have more of a first-hand experience with the refs than we (the event producers) are. However, we do keep a close eye on the behavior of our refs. Both Rob and I make it a point to watch as many games as we can, especially the finals games when everything's on the line.

Our refs are trained to ref a little differently than most players are used to. They will sometimes test the honesty of a player by waiting to see how they react to taking a hit. If the player does as he's supposed to, and calls for a check (or calls himself out) the ref will pull the player and assess no penalty. However, if the player has given the ref some kind of signal that he sensed the hit (say a flinch, or a quick visual check) and continues to play, the ref's going to pull a 1-for-1. The train of thought is if players realize that the refs are watching for such behavior, they'll be less likely to try and play on than if the refs automatically pull the player every time he takes a hit. One of the most overlooked rules is the one that says players are required to either call themselves out or ask for a paint check any time they take a hit. In reality, the ref is really only there to watch for unobvious hits and perform paint checks when the player asks for one on himself.

Now on to inobvious hits... By rule, any hit that a player reacts to is deemed an obvious hit regardless of where it hit the player. An unobvious hit is one that cannot be sensed (by sight, sound, or feel). This is usually limited to places like a pack, kneepad, or shoe. Mask hits are considered obvious, regardless of where you're hit, because the mask is conveniently located by the eyes and ears (two sensory receivers). Shots to the mask are usually accompanied by a spray of technicolor paint and a wonderful thwacking noise. Either of those actions usually results in a reaction from the player. And it's that reaction that the refs are looking for. If you react and don't call for the check, out you and a buddy go.

I did see the hit to the shoe. The player on the opposite team called the hit to the ref ("Ref, check his shoe!"). Now granted, I've seen a few players Jedi a ref into making a call by calling out spots that usually pick up paint from the field (legs, knees, elbows). However, if a player gets called for a specific hit, and the ref sees paint there, chances are the player's going to get pulled for it. The refs try to limit this from happening by cleaning the areas around bunkers, but there will be times that a player gets paint on him and the ref's not going to be able to determine whether it came from the ground or another player. In those cases, it's a judgement call by the ref.

Two other rules that our refs are keenly aware of are the arguing call and the "overshooting" rule. By rule, the only player that should be bringing a dispute to the refs is the team captain and it should be done after the game. Any other player who argues is subject to penalty whether they're dead or alive. This rule is in place to keep 14 players from shouting at the ultimate ref at the same time.

The overshooting rule isn't really a rule at all. If you flip through most rulebooks you won't even find it mentioned. That's because it's hard to build a balanced rule on overshooting. You can't base it on the number of hits taken, because some really bad moves can net you a lot of hits just because of the volume of paint that's in the air. I think my record was getting hit 18 times when I made a last minute dash for the flag and three players mowed me down. Overshooting really falls under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule. If a ref feels that a player is intentionally overshooting a player, and is doing so with malicious intent, he can call the player for unsportsmanlike conduct. So you see, it's not the number of shots you take, but rather if the ref feels the player did it maliciously.

Finally, there's the direct hit rule. A common misconception is that a break must be the size of a quarter to count. This isn't entirely true. If a ref sees a player take a hit, and there's any paint in the area of the hit, the ref may call the player eliminated.

This post is getting long winded, and I'm not really trying to break the record for longest post, so I'm going to cut it off here. It may not address everything, but I hope it clears a few things up for you guys.

I do want to assure you guys that you've raised some valid points, and that I'll be addressing them with our next reffing crew. The Heartland series is still very young and we're tweaking a few things here and there. These last couple of events, we've tried reffing in a zone format (each ref is responsible for for specific bunkers) which is why it sometimes appears as if a particular ref isn't responding to a nearby bunker.
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Old 10-05-2003, 04:41 PM #3
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Wasn't this the game where the player in your deadbox said "Go ahead and give us some f'n penalty points"? You would not have gotten them if he hadn't said that. As a ref for both the Illinois and Indy events I take a lot of your comments personal.
What am I to do when a player has a goggle hit and calls for a paint check? I know what the rules say but how do you put that in practice. It happened more than once. we reffed in zones with refs out in the middle. If you don't beleive me I have pictures, about 600 of them!, to prove it.
As far as the "contest" in Illinois it was a numerical contest. The refs didn't force a single player to step out of bounds. They kept count just as a fluke.
FYI there was over 70 years of reffing experience on the field for this event. There was much more playing experience than that too. How many years have you been reffing? Did you hear Parrasey, Enemy, Camo Jockeys, Evil Lace or anyone else complain about the reffing? I didn't. They know how tough the refs are and play straight up. Hell, I called a Lace player out in a finals game for stepping on the chalk line. I'vce known this player for many year and he's a good personal friend. Yet he stepped on the line and was called out. Y'know what??? Evil Lace came in second by one point! If I had let him "slide" they would have come in first. Sorry, a rules a rule. I enforce them with equal prejudice.
If a sideliner saw someone wipe they should tell a ref about it immediatly. If we can get to a fresh wipe we can tell and do something about it. Complaining about it later does nothing at all.
I hope you will go to the OTE events next season. You guys played well even with the refs "cheating" against you.
I would love to hear from the other teams about the reffing. This is an open forum. All opinions are welcome.

Dan
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Old 10-05-2003, 06:45 PM #4
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The player from Evil Lace that played on didn't shoot your last player. I was the ref that ran in and pulled her and called for the 1 for 1. I immediately turned and pulled the closest player to me.

I reffed both Springfield and this one and I will tell you this when I ref I have no friends once the game starts. I will joke around with every team before the game but I would call a 1 for 1 against my best friend if I had to.
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Old 10-05-2003, 07:12 PM #5
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hey, just trying to get some things cleared up. as for teams complaing about reffing, i heard many teams complaing also. enemy being just one. true, my player shouldnt of said give us f***ing penalty points, but we werent the only teams yelling. My mom has evil lace screaming at the refs after the game but no other team at the event got penalty points for arguing. also, one of my players asked for a paint check for an opposing player and the ref told him that there were refs over there and watching those players play so dont waorry about it and keep playing. We also have on video and seen by my parents, players in the back wiping in fron tof the crowd. my mom, being very cool about me playing paintball and paying for it, was very mad that these players would wipe right in fron tthe every one watching. and trust me, my team knows how ****ty reffing is. we ref tourneys every month at Team Products and a couple of us has reffed division 1 Xball at chicago open. just voicing my opinion
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Old 10-05-2003, 07:27 PM #6
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bet a dead horse

Kris just let it go its in the past and **** can't be done about it now. sure maybe u guys did get cheated but it s just cuz iwasnt there to get the refs on our side with my wit and natural charm. ( i was with misplaced at teh springfield event on sat. tearing **** up with the green timmy if anyone cares.) but yea kris just drop it **** happens its over dont pissoff ppl when u dont need to. refs will always suck unless u win the tourney thats just the way it is. but let it go dude

Damian
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Old 10-05-2003, 10:49 PM #7
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The reffing at the tournament I thought was pretty good compared to most tournaments. Ofcourse there is always questionable calls on the field. Its how many and how the ref's handle it. I've seen people do run through's get hit at the 50 and still let the player hit the back 90.

As far as you getting mad for the ref telling your team that if he asked for another paintcheck he'd pull a 1 for 1. I'd agree with him, i believe Dan was the ref that said it. The player had a big splat on his LENS and asked for a paintcheck? Maybe it wasn't deliberate from the player but doing something like that takes away the ref from looking at something else, and that is the reason of the warning for the 1 for 1.

Tom
BTW i was the guy with the Fueled by brownies jersey.
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Old 10-06-2003, 07:07 AM #8
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The guy you are talking about could only see some of the splatter on his goggles from where the hit was at. Maybe the ref failed to see that, but with the goggles on , you could only see a few drops of paint and it did look as though it was just some splatter.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:43 PM #9
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12.41 Un-obvious hits are those which impact and break on player harnesses & tubes
located on players back. Any part of the harness located in front of player’s hips, are
considered obvious.

I was the player that was pulled in that game for the one for one. The player that played on got shot by me because she ran through my stream of paint that was hitting your player. If he feels he was over shot, maybe he should have came out after the first 5 or 6 broke on him.
To argue with refs is one thing, when your whole team tries it, that is another. At least make a good attempt at knowing the rules before pleading your case.

All refs always suck unless you win.
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Old 10-07-2003, 06:14 AM #10
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We had fun and shot peeps and got shot too. Misplaced you guys rocked. Anyhow, there were good and bad calls but thats how it goes. I thought the refs did a good job. This was our first 7man event and I wanna give some thx to Sup and Scotty for playing with us, FOR GOOD, wink wink Tom. No, seriously it was great and I can't wait to play another.

Dan, do you have any pictures of the event that you can post, and Scott wants to know if you have any of the final game. Actually I do too. THAT WAS MADNESSSSSSS!!!! THX to all who helped and played.

dave
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Old 10-07-2003, 09:21 PM #11
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Yeah, good and bad calls were made, and I wrote this post while swtill very mad, the next morning about the finals games. Tempers were high with everyone during the finals and maybe I was wrong in making some of the statements i did make. anyway, i hope next years series will be as great as the two we attended this year. and hopefully the bathrooms wont be a mile away like in Indy, i had the runs and almost didint make the bathroom in time...lol, not realyl, cool that they were heated though.
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Old 10-07-2003, 09:25 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by tonsofun
The guy you are talking about could only see some of the splatter on his goggles from where the hit was at. Maybe the ref failed to see that, but with the goggles on , you could only see a few drops of paint and it did look as though it was just some splatter.
I disagree. The "ring" of paint went almost to the bridge of his nose. I even asked if he wanted me to take a picture of it so he could see. He immediately said no and ripped off his mask. He then got real quiet and asked if he could go get his pods.

Dan
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Old 10-07-2003, 09:26 PM #13
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Old 10-07-2003, 10:21 PM #14
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Quote:
Hopefully the bathrooms wont be a mile away like in Indy
I tried to get the fairgrounds to move them closer, but they said something about that not being feasible. It was either take a hike or rent outhouses. I figured the short hike would be the preferred route.
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Old 10-07-2003, 10:49 PM #15
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Besides the "crummy" reffing what did you think about the "extra" audio on the God Clock? Chris wanted to try out some different stuff and I think it was fun. It broke up the silence and added a bit of humor. Gotta love Mahna Mahna by Animal of the Muppets!

Dan
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Old 10-08-2003, 07:33 AM #16
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another note

Any body got the screen name of the girl running the computer in Springfield. I know her dad or somebody was reffing so HOOK ME UP BROTHER.
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Old 10-08-2003, 01:34 PM #17
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Dude she's 14!! I don't think her dad would like me giving out her info.
Sorry,
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Old 10-08-2003, 01:43 PM #18
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sooooooo

dude the average age of our team there was like 15 minus one dude that was liek 27 so its aight. im only 16 so dont be frettn. I just figured that the guys reffing would be on here so i wanted to mess wit em a lil bit dont worry its all love. werd.
Damian
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Old 10-08-2003, 07:00 PM #19
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damian , way to go big pimpin, if theres grass on the field play ball .... hehehe. anyway, the extra audio on teh god clock was AWESOME. i loved all those great songs, especially the one about i want a hippopotamus for christmas. what is that song?
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Old 10-08-2003, 10:39 PM #20
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PLAY BALL?

ANd if not flip over and play in the mud. damn i crack my self up But ig otta give props to scheaffer for that WERD damian but yea can i get her email since im off age
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