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Old 12-22-2009, 01:47 AM #85
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Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
"Decent" doesn't mean the same as believing in God. A scientific theory is held to a different standard than a religious or philosophical idea.
Is it not wierd/illogical that people can be so positive of something with no more than "decent" faith in something?
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:02 AM #86
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Ok, but how does that have anything to do with predestination? I've noticed times in my life when I needed to change my behavior and I did so.

But with what happened with me, I didn't really notice that my life needed change. Well, let me take that back. I did notice that it needed change but I had no desire to change at all. I was just kinda like "man my life is pretty jacked up, but it's awesome getting high all the time, so whatever" Even though I truly didn't have a desire to turn my whole life around, let alone have a relationship with God, it still happened. And it happened, as what I would say, not on my own will.


Besides, if you hadn't had that experience and you were predestined to go to heaven, it wouldn't have mattered if you had just continued smoking ****loads of weed and screwing random girls, therefore negating the need for you to have said experiment. Yea it really just doesn't work.

Of course I wouldn't have changed. If I hadn't started having a relationship with Christ, my savior, I would still, to this day, be screwing chicks and getting high every weekend. But, that's now what happened, so it doesn't really matter.


There's also the fact that the Bible puts an emphasis both on belief and works gaining you salvation. Of course Christians argue about how much of either is needed, but that's besides the point. The overarching theme of the Bible and its books clearly points away from predestination. It's very clear on what's necessary to have a relationship with Christ and that anyone can do so, not just a select few.

That is correct, the bible certainly does say that you need both belief, and works. Many people do not understand, or really take time to learn what that means. I think you know what belief mean, yoiu know, having a relationship and believing in Christ.

Works is what comes out of the change in one's life after becoming a Christian. For instance, if I hadn't of changed (smoking weed, screwing girls, etc) and I said I believe in God and am a Christian, that would not grant me into heaven. But, my life, and many other people's lives have changed as a result of becoming a Christian. Bottom line, if someone truly becomes a christian (belief), there ways will change(works). Does that make sense?



So you can believe in predestination, but it really doesn't make you a Christian. Calvinism departs from the Bible more so than Catholicism really. Then again you can simply put up the brick wall that is the "it's my own experience" argument. It's not a logically valid argument, but there's nothing anyone can say to it. You have to ask yourself though, are you really being honest with yourself by putting that wall up instead of thinking rationally?

I definitely didn't mean to put up a brick wall. It is just my honest answer. My experience is just such a personal (not personal as in offensive) thing that it seems like it truly only makes sense to me. This may seem like a lame answer to get me out of this argument or whatever, but it's not. That's just how God is though. He's very personal with his children.

Also, I usually don't contribute to discussions on this forum because I either see them as not having a point or not going anywhere. Since this discussion seems to be somewhat decent, I will continue to contribute.
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fair enough.. now you dont feel the need to repent or anything? because you feel that what ever you did was the right thing to do or was supposed to happen?
Of course I feel the need to repent. The bible calls Christians to repent of their sins. Not just confess of their sins, but to truly repent. I try to repent and confess of my sins daily. I do not feel that my sins are the right thing to do, that would be absurd. As far my sins being what is supposed to happen, I don't know. I say this because I sometimes see my sins as reminding me of the gospel and I can sometimes dwell on the gospel because of it's great news and for saving a jacked up person like me. Of course I am not for sure with this answer though. I do not completely know, let alone nearly know, how God works. I believe humans aren't supposed to completely know how God works.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:10 AM #87
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That is correct, the bible certainly does say that you need both belief, and works. Many people do not understand, or really take time to learn what that means. I think you know what belief mean, yoiu know, having a relationship and believing in Christ.

Works is what comes out of the change in one's life after becoming a Christian. For instance, if I hadn't of changed (smoking weed, screwing girls, etc) and I said I believe in God and am a Christian, that would not grant me into heaven. But, my life, and many other people's lives have changed as a result of becoming a Christian. Bottom line, if someone truly becomes a christian (belief), there ways will change(works). Does that make sense?
See this entire part of your post is not in accordance with predestination. You are agreeing that anyone can turn to Christ and have a relationship with him, not just the chosen few.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:11 AM #88
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Is it not wierd/illogical that people can be so positive of something with no more than "decent" faith in something?
Now I really think you're just trying to be contrarian.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:17 AM #89
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My belief with predestination is that there is a select few that are indeed predestined to be a Christ follower. Scripture supports that. Then, those who are not predestined, have their own choice out of their own free will to believe. Scripture also supports this. Perhaps I should have stated this earlier in the thread. But, in this life, nobody is going to know for sure and there is no way to know for sure.

Unless of course you think of it as, since God is all knowing, he knows who is going to heaven and who is not (predestination) already. For instance, he knows the choice that each person is going to make.'

I guess it really depends how you look at it. I will not say that I am not open to other Christian's input on predestination, but I am pretty set in what I believe.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:29 AM #90
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Now I really think you're just trying to be contrarian.
Technically how can i be contrarian if I started the conversation?

Way to avoid the question, though. No one noticed.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:59 AM #91
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Technically how can i be contrarian if I started the conversation?

Way to avoid the question, though. No one noticed.
The question was asked and answered before. Science is not just about having a decent amount of faith in something. It's about having hard evidence to back up a claim.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:46 PM #92
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Let me try to simplify the argument between warbeak and 270 if I can. Those who believe in BBT do so because there is real evidence for it. If you showed them a theory that was better supported by real evidence they would logically have to change their mind. Now the none scientist that believe in BBT do so because they know there are many intelligent people who have studied the point and have published their evidence to be peer reviewed and continue to gather evidence for or against the theory. It is true that some folks will argue things like BBT as if they know it's true, but others argue it fervently because of the evidence for it.

Now for religion, if a muslim came to you and said the Quarn predicts more things accurately than the bible (borrowing from another thread as it's on my mind) therefor Muslims are correct and Christians are wrong, you would not agree with him despite any evidence he may show you.

Scientific belief is based on something tangible and will change with evidence, with the end goal ultimately being to prove or disprove something. Religious belief is based on faith and faith alone.

Lastly there is plenty of conclusive evidence to prove that dinosaurs existed and evolution has been proven in antibacterial resistant strains of bacteria.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:51 PM #93
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Yes exactly. The point is that there is a different standard of "belief" in or acceptance of ideas between science and religion. "Belief" in science is not predicated on faith, it is predicated on tangible data/evidence. Belief in religion is predicated on faith. I don't know how much clearer this can be made. The idea that both are the same is an attempt by the intellectually lazy to excuse themselves from having to think about the issues more in depth.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:54 PM #94
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I wouldn't really call Christianity a religion, but that's just me.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:56 PM #95
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I wouldn't really call Christianity a religion, but that's just me.
?
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:06 PM #96
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?
Well, I see it as a relationship, not a religion. A couple of years ago, when I was atheist, I heard someone say that and I thought it was one of the dumbest, most cliche things I had ever heard. And, now that I'm a christian, I still think it sounds cliche, but I truly see it as a relationship. This will only make sense if you are not going by the dictionary definition of religion, but by what the general public thinks of religion (set of rules, boring, etc.)

Again, that's just how I see it.
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:08 PM #97
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I wouldn't really call Christianity a religion, but that's just me.
http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&q=religion&hl=en.

http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&q=Christianity&hl=e n.

Care to clarify how you came to that conclusion? You beat me to it, never mind.

It's still a religion though. You can call it a personal relationship and that's fine, but calling something by a different name doesn't make it something else.
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:23 PM #98
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http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&q=religion&hl=en.

http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&q=Christianity&hl=e n.

Care to clarify how you came to that conclusion? You beat me to it, never mind.


I don't even know if it had anything to do with the discussion we're having. And like I said, that's just how I see it.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:14 PM #99
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Yes.

Remember, I have no way of fully proving this, it's just what I believe.
So how is your god fair and just at all? He dooms people before they are even created? Doesn't sound too kind to me.
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:54 PM #100
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So how is your god fair and just at all? He dooms people before they are even created? Doesn't sound too kind to me.
Well, he knows, in the end, who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. He is all knowing.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:03 PM #101
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Well, he knows, in the end, who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. He is all knowing.
Man 1 is Jewish. Man 2 is a Christian. Here's an experiment. Man 1 and Man 2 go through life doing the exact same things, donating the same amount of money to charity, they each have the same flaws, none which stop them from going to heaven. They die, man 1 goes to purgatory, man 2 goes to heaven. Why?
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:45 PM #102
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Man 1 is Jewish. Man 2 is a Christian. Here's an experiment. Man 1 and Man 2 go through life doing the exact same things, donating the same amount of money to charity, they each have the same flaws, none which stop them from going to heaven. They die, man 1 goes to purgatory, man 2 goes to heaven. Why?
I don't know, I'm not God. I may give you a better answer later, but I have to leave right now.


Also, giving to charities, nor good works, doesn't have much to do with going to heaven.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:58 PM #103
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I don't know, I'm not God. I may give you a better answer later, but I have to leave right now.


Also, giving to charities, nor good works, has much to do with going to heaven.
Um, just for clarification, I'm quite positive he means does NOT have much to do with going to heaven.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:50 PM #104
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I'm actually somewhat interested in hearing the line of logic you've followed to this belief. I would of course point out any logical fallacies I notice, but that's not personal, please don't take offense to that.
I’ve condensed all the posts I had quoted about predestination into this one. Because that’s exactly how I’m going to describe it. Logically. Obviously, logic is a good way to find truth. Therefore, I think that you can find truth with logic is the logic is not flawed. So, I’d have to say that, firstly, free will does not exist. I could see how one may come to that conclusion from the Bible. We perceive our choices as free will because we live in the present and within time. God does not. Perhaps some of the people in the Bible thought or perceived their life as free will, but some knew that God had predestined everything.

I can actually think of three ways predestination could exist, and one has absolutely nothing to do God. Here goes:

1. As Vanish (I believe) said, our choices are directly or indirectly influenced by the choice before it. One event started the sequence (God causing the Big Bang, creation, whatever you want to believe) and then everything else logically followed. This makes perfect sense. There is no such thing as randomity in the universe. I would also at this time like to posit that entropy isn’t really random. It is the opposite of random. It happens because it’s set in nature to happen. I can’t think of any examples for this, but it makes sense to me.

2. I’ve posted this a few times recently. Here are the assumptions for this argument:

a. God created us with a sinful nature
b. As a result of this sinful nature, we will always choose against God without his direct intervention.

This is what, I think, destroys free will. Most Christians do not find contentions with either of the two assumptions. If they are true, we are slaves to sin, as Paul describes, and thusly, sins will. We will do everything against God not by choice, but by nature. If God intervenes, he is directly influencing our decision, and leaves no free will. This argument will be true in any occurrence.

3. I have not thought about this too much, but maybe I should. God created everything, including evil. Whether he actually created evil or evil flowed out because good was created ( a dichotomy that must exist for either one to be truly “good” or “evil”), is not the point. Evil directly came from God, and he causes us to do everything, including sin.

These are three I can think of right off the top of my head. You can claim that they are not logical enough, or ask why God would allow or create evil in the first place, but that is not the point. You asked for a logical reason why I (or anyone) would believe in predestination and I delivered.
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Well, I see it as a relationship, not a religion. A couple of years ago, when I was atheist, I heard someone say that and I thought it was one of the dumbest, most cliche things I had ever heard. And, now that I'm a christian, I still think it sounds cliche, but I truly see it as a relationship. This will only make sense if you are not going by the dictionary definition of religion, but by what the general public thinks of religion (set of rules, boring, etc.)

Again, that's just how I see it.
Yes, it is terribly cliché (automatic Word correction, lol), and I actually generally try to avoid using it. I actually thought about this earlier tonight. What I eventually came to, is that this “not a religion, but a relationship” quip is used by almost all Christians. I wonder how many of them truly believe it? I decided, after about 2 years, that I am not part of the Christian religion. I don’t think most people even understand and definitely don’t believe it when they say they’re all about the relationship. Some people say I’m too legalistic, and for what? I tell them that I won’t eat pork and put up Christmas trees. They seem to think I believe I have salvation because I do that kind of stuff, but I just want to try to follow God’s law. Just like the truth, we try to find it even though we know we won’t (in a broad sense, anyway), and we should try to follow God’s law to the best of our abilities even though we know we can’t. That’s why Christ came. But he didn’t say that we should blatantly stop following the law and sin because we have salvation. He said to follow the word, for it is the word of God revealed to man. He elaborated on only 10 commandments of the law to prove a point; that we couldn’t do it, but he never said to disregard it just because we couldn’t do it.
I have gone on a rant. As I was saying, you can’t claim to not be part of a religion and then believe everything that religion says. I believe barely believe anything that Christians believe, so I don’t treat myself as a Christian, but still as someone who believes in God and Christ’s saving work of death. Just in my opinion. It took about two years of dissenting with popular evangelist Protestant, Catholic, and most all other sects of Christianity to come to the conclusion that I do not want to identify myself as a Christian.

/rant

PS: haha, I did this in Word.

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Old 12-22-2009, 08:49 PM #105
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Um, just for clarification, I'm quite positive he means does NOT have much to do with going to heaven.
ha ha yes. corrected.


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Yes, it is terribly cliché (automatic Word correction, lol), and I actually generally try to avoid using it. I actually thought about this earlier tonight. What I eventually came to, is that this “not a religion, but a relationship” quip is used by almost all Christians. I wonder how many of them truly believe it? I decided, after about 2 years, that I am not part of the Christian religion. I don’t think most people even understand and definitely don’t believe it when they say they’re all about the relationship. Some people say I’m too legalistic, and for what? I tell them that I won’t eat pork and put up Christmas trees. They seem to think I believe I have salvation because I do that kind of stuff, but I just want to try to follow God’s law. Just like the truth, we try to find it even though we know we won’t (in a broad sense, anyway), and we should try to follow God’s law to the best of our abilities even though we know we can’t. That’s why Christ came. But he didn’t say that we should blatantly stop following the law and sin because we have salvation. He said to follow the word, for it is the word of God revealed to man. He elaborated on only 10 commandments of the law to prove a point; that we couldn’t do it, but he never said to disregard it just because we couldn’t do it.
I have gone on a rant. As I was saying, you can’t claim to not be part of a religion and then believe everything that religion says. I believe barely believe anything that Christians believe, so I don’t treat myself as a Christian, but still as someone who believes in God and Christ’s saving work of death. Just in my opinion. It took about two years of dissenting with popular evangelist Protestant, Catholic, and most all other sects of Christianity to come to the conclusion that I do not want to identify myself as a Christian.

/rant

PS: haha, I did this in Word.
Well, I can certainly say that I do honestly and truly believe that true Christianity is a relationship. Do you?

And this whole thing with you believing in the Christian God and Jesus Christ, but not labeling yourself as a Christian is weird. I mean, you either are a Christian, or you're not. But I don't want to ridicule what you're saying because obviously it makes sense to you and that is what is important. If you feel that what you're doing is what God wants you to do, then all power to ya. And, to be honest, you confuse the crap out of me.
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