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Old 12-21-2009, 06:51 PM #43
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Originally Posted by DaytonLax14 View Post
It just makes sense, to me at least.
Yes.
If you can't explain it then it really isn't anything more than your own opinion, predicated on pure nothing.

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I was only trying to make a point that if what we believe wasn't a choice then shouldn't we all believe the same thing. because we wouldn't have a choice to argue because there wouldn't be conflicting evidence to choose between. and acording to many other people judaism was first out of the major 3 we have today. but even that wasn't the first...we would all be pagans.

also if what people believe wasn't a choice why would people change religions? wouldn't they be unable to unless god personally spoke to then and said you need to change...
You're still misunderstanding what he was saying.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:26 PM #44
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Ya, I mean what lead you to believe this way? The bible? experience? other?

*I am not trying to question your belief but to understand it better.
The bible, such as the verses that I posted. As well as my life.
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If you can't explain it then it really isn't anything more than your own opinion, predicated on pure nothing.
I posted scripture that supports predestination. Weather you feel that as explaining it or not, is up to you.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:33 PM #45
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Originally Posted by DaytonLax14 View Post
The bible, such as the verses that I posted. As well as my life.


I posted scripture that supports predestination. Weather you feel that as explaining it or not, is up to you.
Well saying I believe because of the Bible is pretty much a brick wall logic wise, but we can certainly discuss the validity of your personal experiences leading you to the conclusion. Tell me, what empirical experience can you have that leads you to understand a non-empirical idea?
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:36 PM #46
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No thanks, whenever I try to explain my story, regarding predestination, on this site, I am usually told to just shut up or something along those lines.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:40 PM #47
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I love how athiests are so critical of the lack of "proof" in theists, but go on to believe in so many scientific theories that are without "proof".
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:54 PM #48
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No thanks, whenever I try to explain my story, regarding predestination, on this site, I am usually told to just shut up or something along those lines.
I'm actually somewhat interested in hearing the line of logic you've followed to this belief. I would of course point out any logical fallacies I notice, but that's not personal, please don't take offense to that.

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I love how athiests are so critical of the lack of "proof" in theists, but go on to believe in so many scientific theories that are without "proof".
You really are just starting to troll dude.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:04 PM #49
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You really are just starting to troll dude.

How is that not an objective point? An athiest call out a thiest on not having proof of God but an athiest don't need proof for so many things that they call fact. But instead of responding to the conversation, again, you respond with an attack on me. But I'm the troll?
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:11 PM #50
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You really are just starting to troll dude.

he does kinda have a point though. people believe everything came from something the size of a grain of sand and exploded into the universe. there is no real proof of that. its all just thoery... kinda like god. one major diference is people didnt kill people for disagreeing about scientific theories.

ill bet there are even people out there that meshed everything together. maybe it didnt take a week to create the universe and everything in it. maybe it took god a hell of a long time to make it. maybe god even made evolution. (hey, you know what we can make monkeys better!) There are so many angles we could take all these unknowns and make them known. yes that is kind of confusing. Ill even bet there are people out there who actually believe that they are in the Matrix... yes i went there...
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:23 PM #51
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I'm actually somewhat interested in hearing the line of logic you've followed to this belief. I would of course point out any logical fallacies I notice, but that's not personal, please don't take offense to that.

Well then, since we seem to be in somewhat of an agreement, I will share my story with you, which leads to me to my belief of predestination. It's pretty much my testimony, but we can get something out of it regarding this discussion.


I grew up in a chrstian family. You know, went to church ever since I was young and all that. Well, around junior high/8th grade, I became to realize that my belief in a God was pretty crazy. I then doubted everything I heard and just completely rejected anything Christian based. During this time, I still went to church with my family, mainly because I was just expected to and I didn't want to cause any conflict. So I went to the church services and hated every second of it.
Freshmen year comes around, and my lacrosse coach, who is a young life leader (he's college aged. If you don't know what young life is, look it up if you're curious), invites me to a young life camp. I thought it was going to be way lame because young life is a christian bases thing, but I decided to go because a ton of people said it's a bunch of fun. Plus, I wanted to get on the good side of my lacrosse coach.
So, I went to camp and had a really fun week. But, whenever they talked about God, I was not interested at all ad didn't really care about what they had to say. Week goes on, I have an awesome time, but the whole God thing, I hated.
I then venture into my sophomore year of high school. That was the point in my life where I experiment with various drugs. I became a huge pot head, and partied all the time. Every week at school, I would just look forward to the weekend so that I could get high. Getting high became my life. I also messed around with girls. Did a lot of risky things with them, but thank God they didn't get pregnant. Anyways, drugs, and girls was who I was and what I was all about. I thought I had the greatest life ever.
During the summer after sophomore year, I just kind of realized that my life is pretty jacked up. I also had some instances where my friends would choose getting high over doing stuff with me. My life just pretty much let me down. Remember, during all of this, I'm still going to church on sunday mornings and just totally hating it.
One night, my friends and I made plans to go to a club (it was teen night) to get with some chicks and stuff. Well, the day that we're supposed to go, I get a call from a friend who tells me that he and the other guys don't have enough money for weed and going to the club. I then tell them that they should just go to the club like we had planned. They refused and said they'd rather buy weed and get high instead of following through with what we had planned. Point is, they ditched me to get high. That totally let me down, but I went to the club alone, met some girl, messed around with her afterwards, then headed home.
That night, something just completely hit me. I don't know how to explain it, it was just crazy. I ended up picking up a bible and laying on my bed to read it. I remember thinking "why the heck am I reading this crap?". Regardless, I did for some reason. I didn't have any intention of doing so, nor did I want to, but I did. The next night, I was going to leave for that same camp that I went to in the summer of freshmen year. My intentions of gong this year was to get with some girls and such.
Anyways, I go to the camp, and for the first couple of days I was there, I just got that crazy feeling again like I did the night after I went to the club. It was just really weird. Over the next few days, my mind and heart just COMPLETELY changed and I felt a need to know Christ. I didn't want to believe in God at all, it just kind of happened. Towards the end of the week, I had a talk with my lacrosse coach/young life leader about what I've been feeling, and then I decided I wanted to get baptized. Again, I didn't want to believe in God at all, something just hit me and I did.
A couple of weeks later, me, a new Christian, and my lacrosse coach/young life leader were hanging out, just talking about my new faith and the topic of predestination came up. He asks why I read my bible that night, or why I had that weird feeling, but I could not provide an answer. The whole experience leads me to believe in predestination.

Weather or not what I just wrote explains anything, I don't know, but it's my answer. It will probably not seem as significant to you, because it isn't your life, but it is in fact, significant to me.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:48 PM #52
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How is that not an objective point? An athiest call out a thiest on not having proof of God but an athiest don't need proof for so many things that they call fact. But instead of responding to the conversation, again, you respond with an attack on me. But I'm the troll?
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he does kinda have a point though. people believe everything came from something the size of a grain of sand and exploded into the universe. there is no real proof of that. its all just thoery... kinda like god. one major diference is people didnt kill people for disagreeing about scientific theories.

ill bet there are even people out there that meshed everything together. maybe it didnt take a week to create the universe and everything in it. maybe it took god a hell of a long time to make it. maybe god even made evolution. (hey, you know what we can make monkeys better!) There are so many angles we could take all these unknowns and make them known. yes that is kind of confusing. Ill even bet there are people out there who actually believe that they are in the Matrix... yes i went there...
Oh man I can't even believe I have to say this:

Science is not a belief system. Your illustrations of the matter are simplistic and fallacious to the point of absurdity. No, science and religion are not the same thing. If you want to believe they are as some sort of mantra meant to comfort you so you don't have to deal with difficult issues, then so be it. But you're still incredibly wrong.

Lax, I am very interested in reading your story and will certainly respond. Maybe not tonight, but I will get to it.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:57 PM #53
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hey with this whole predestionation thing I know nothing about it... how can you see your self going to heaven if you dont know whats in store for you in the future? do you still believe in god or what? like murder is a sin... what would happen if you caused an accident and killed someone... which i hope never happenes to anyone but im just trying to get an idea of what this predestination stuff is.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:59 PM #54
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hey with this whole predestionation thing I know nothing about it... how can you see your self going to heaven if you dont know whats in store for you in the future? do you still believe in god or what? like murder is a sin... what would happen if you caused an accident and killed someone... which i hope never happenes to anyone but im just trying to get an idea of what this predestination stuff is.
first of all, sinning =/= not going to heaven. I sin every day and I am confident I am justified (through the grace of God) to go to heaven.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:10 PM #55
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Oh man I can't even believe I have to say this:

Science is not a belief system. Your illustrations of the matter are simplistic and fallacious to the point of absurdity. No, science and religion are not the same thing. If you want to believe they are as some sort of mantra meant to comfort you so you don't have to deal with difficult issues, then so be it. But you're still incredibly wrong.
do you even read what is posted or do you just skim through get a general concept then attack. No where in the post did i say that these are my beliefs. secondly i never said it was a belief system... i said people made theories. not that they worship something.. and i never said that science and religion were similar... but if you do go back and read the church was sickened by the idea of evolution. and the big bang theory. they didnt want either taught in schools because they were in direct contradiction of their religious beliefs. acourding to the church god created man. they would not accept the fact that we came from apes...

so why dont you read before you go trying to belittle people. because your starting to look like an idiot...
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:13 PM #56
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A couple of weeks later, me, a new Christian, and my lacrosse coach/young life leader were hanging out, just talking about my new faith and the topic of predestination came up. He asks why I read my bible that night, or why I had that weird feeling, but I could not provide an answer. The whole experience leads me to believe in predestination.
Ok, but how does that have anything to do with predestination? I've noticed times in my life when I needed to change my behavior and I did so. Maybe when I've been drinking too much, I cut back the drinking. I still drink, just in moderation and in the appropriate forum. I've known friends who smoked way too much pot and it became their whole lives. So they just scaled back on the emphasis they put on weed. They still smoke, but they made some good changes in their life without having to go to extremes. It really just seems like you jumped to conclusions for comfort's sake. And that's easy and natural to do, don't get me wrong. It doesn't make it logically valid though.

Besides, if you hadn't had that experience and you were predestined to go to heaven, it wouldn't have mattered if you had just continued smoking ****loads of weed and screwing random girls, therefore negating the need for you to have said experiment. Yea it really just doesn't work.

The other problem with predestination is that it pretty much precludes the possibility of God being benevolent. You've got an all powerful deity that created beings whom he has decided will burn in Hell for eternity. Any way you spin it, that's not benevolent. There's also the fact that the Bible puts an emphasis both on belief and works gaining you salvation. Of course Christians argue about how much of either is needed, but that's besides the point. The overarching theme of the Bible and its books clearly points away from predestination. It's very clear on what's necessary to have a relationship with Christ and that anyone can do so, not just a select few.

So you can believe in predestination, but it really doesn't make you a Christian. Calvinism departs from the Bible more so than Catholicism really. Then again you can simply put up the brick wall that is the "it's my own experience" argument. It's not a logically valid argument, but there's nothing anyone can say to it. You have to ask yourself though, are you really being honest with yourself by putting that wall up instead of thinking rationally?
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:14 PM #57
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first of all, sinning =/= not going to heaven. I sin every day and I am confident I am justified (through the grace of God) to go to heaven.
fair enough.. now you dont feel the need to repent or anything? because you feel that what ever you did was the right thing to do or was supposed to happen?
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:16 PM #58
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do you even read what is posted or do you just skim through get a general concept then attack. No where in the post did i say that these are my beliefs. secondly i never said it was a belief system... i said people made theories. not that they worship something.. and i never said that science and religion were similar... but if you do go back and read the church was sickened by the idea of evolution. and the big bang theory. they didnt want either taught in schools because they were in direct contradiction of their religious beliefs. acourding to the church god created man. they would not accept the fact that we came from apes...

so why dont you read before you go trying to belittle people. because your starting to look like an idiot...
No I didn't read past your idiotic explanation of the BBT. You initially agreed with 270 and so I included you in on my response. Don't blame me when you talk in circles.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:27 PM #59
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explain youself then because obviously you seem to think you know something noone else does... so lay your wisdom and knowledge apon us oh wise master of all that is!

and i didnt agree i simply said there was some substance behind what he said.

and now I also believe you are trolling just so you can say you know something about stuff. this is all opinions anyway. how can you justify saying someone is wrong and not have the right answer your self?
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:30 PM #60
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explain youself then because obviously you seem to think you know something noone else does... so lay your wisdom and knowledge apon us oh wise master of all that is!
I did it already. Science is not a belief system and therefore 270kidz is wrong as is your statement that he "has a point". That's all.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:37 PM #61
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then was is science then?

from what i know science is based off of theories and this is what the internet says about theories.

a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of ...
hypothesis: a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory
a belief that can guide behavior

right from google : definition of theory
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:41 PM #62
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then was is science then?

from what i know science is based off of theories and this is what the internet says about theories.

a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of ...
hypothesis: a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory a belief that can guide behavior
I highlighted the important parts.

A scientific theory may be a belief, but it is substantiated, predicated on facts, not faith. And it's not a belief in the same way that faith in God is a belief. Belief really isn't the correct word. I don't believe in evolution, I accept it as a well substantiated scientific theory. Get it yet?
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:15 AM #63
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I highlighted the important parts.

A scientific theory may be a belief, but it is substantiated, predicated on facts, not faith. And it's not a belief in the same way that faith in God is a belief. Belief really isn't the correct word. I don't believe in evolution, I accept it as a well substantiated scientific theory. Get it yet?
I believe neither of us is understanding what the other is saying... i never said science was or was not a belief system. only that there are people that do believe with little or no true evidence. The only thing keeping the big bang theory as a theory is that they have nothing to contradict it. there is no solid proof that the big bang occured or that god existed.
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