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Old 12-20-2009, 11:21 PM #22
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Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
perhaps, but with very few points of disagreement, most people and cultures at least idealize principles laid out in the bible, if not actually follow them or put them in practice.
Gee there are several glaring disagreements about the Bible even amongst Christians. As for the principles, that can be said for tons of holy texts. We all follow a similar moral framework because it works. You'll find similar principles in any religion.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:30 PM #23
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It's your choice to believe in God or not.
I can hardly believe how foolish this statement is.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:32 PM #24
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I can hardly believe how foolish this statement is.
good point...

you're stupid (I can do it, too)
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:39 PM #25
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Originally Posted by 270KIDZ View Post
good point...

you're stupid (I can do it, too)
Belief is not a choice. Belief is the result of experience, knowledge, and judgment. I can't "choose" to believe in god any more than I can choose to believe in unicorns, dragons, or trickle-down economics. Unless my mental faculties are somehow disabled, my brain will process the knowledge and evidence available and produce a probablistic result (a belief). Unless the variables change (new knowledge, different perspective for processing existing knowledge, etc.), belief doesn't change.

You currently believe that you are on Earth. Now choose to believe that you are on the moon. Please explain why you can't choose to believe that you are on the moon without discounting the ability to choose to believe in god, or anything else.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:46 PM #26
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true. thats why i supported my answer with bible verses...
I could support the opposing argument with bible verses as well.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:59 PM #27
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I could support the opposing argument with bible verses as well.
I'm waiting... (this is kinda the point of a thread, to talk about things. I am interested in how you came to that view point)
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:09 AM #28
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I believe in predestination because if I look at my life, pre destination just makes sense. And if you take a good amount of time to think about what exactly pre destination is, and relate it to this world, you'll be surprised.


Romans is full of it.

Rom 8:21-30 " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5-having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire

Rom 9:15-16 " For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

Rom 9:21 "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

Rom 9:11-13 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Now yes, there are verses in the bible that could be taken as supporting free will, and others that could be taken as supporting pre destination.

But I encourage you to think about it a bit. I don't know if I'm right, or if you're right, I'm just going by my life mainly. But really, it doesn't really matter because you aren't going to be able to figure out, nor solve, the argument of free will vs. predestination.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:11 AM #29
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Belief is not a choice. Belief is the result of experience, knowledge, and judgment. I can't "choose" to believe in god any more than I can choose to believe in unicorns, dragons, or trickle-down economics. Unless my mental faculties are somehow disabled, my brain will process the knowledge and evidence available and produce a probablistic result (a belief). Unless the variables change (new knowledge, different perspective for processing existing knowledge, etc.), belief doesn't change.
Good point. Except that their are more than one definition of believe...

Quote:
–verb (used with object)
to have confidence or faith in the truth of; give credence to

—Verb phrase, believe in,
to be persuaded of the truth or existence of
to believe in God.
Now can we stop playing semantics please? It gets really old.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:16 AM #30
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Originally Posted by DaytonLax14 View Post
I believe in predestination because if I look at my life, pre destination just makes sense. And if you take a good amount of time to think about what exactly pre destination is, and relate it to this world, you'll be surprised.


Romans is full of it.

Rom 8:21-30 " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5-having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire

Rom 9:15-16 " For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

Rom 9:21 "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

Rom 9:11-13 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Now yes, there are verses in the bible that could be taken as supporting free will, and others that could be taken as supporting pre destination.

But I encourage you to think about it a bit. I don't know if I'm right, or if you're right, I'm just going by my life mainly. But really, it doesn't really matter because you aren't going to be able to figure out, nor solve, the argument of free will vs. predestination.
Sorry I kinda skimmed because I wanted to get into a question. How far do you believe that pre-destination extends?

Are you saying that God has a plan for you because I would definitly agree.
(Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV)

Are you saying that before you are born, you are already destined to heaven or hell (Puritan-ish)?

Honestly, I am sorry if this sounds ignorant. I have just not had much exposure to modern predestination.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:27 AM #31
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Good point. Except that their are more than one definition of believe...



Now can we stop playing semantics please? It gets really old.
I'm in no way trying to play semantics and frankly do not care what definition you want to use, as long as it's consistent with your assertion that one can choose to believe in god.

My point remains:

You currently believe that you are on Earth. Now choose to believe that you are on the moon. Please explain why you can't choose to believe that you are on the moon without discounting the ability to choose to believe in god, or anything else.

Your assertion that one can choose whether or not to believe in god is central to many perspectives on omnipotence, free will, and god's "fairness."
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:41 AM #32
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Are you saying that before you are born, you are already destined to heaven or hell (Puritan-ish)?
Yes.

Remember, I have no way of fully proving this, it's just what I believe.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:42 AM #33
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Belief is not a choice. Belief is the result of experience, knowledge, and judgment. I can't "choose" to believe in god any more than I can choose to believe in unicorns, dragons, or trickle-down economics. Unless my mental faculties are somehow disabled, my brain will process the knowledge and evidence available and produce a probablistic result (a belief). Unless the variables change (new knowledge, different perspective for processing existing knowledge, etc.), belief doesn't change.

You currently believe that you are on Earth. Now choose to believe that you are on the moon. Please explain why you can't choose to believe that you are on the moon without discounting the ability to choose to believe in god, or anything else.
Belief is a choice... knowledge an experiance will skew your beliefs therefore giving you a choice of weather or not to believe in something. kinda like fate or karma or coincidence... So do you believe kennedy was killed by a magic bullet? Wether you do or not that is a belief. not a religions belief, but a belief none the less. AND the choice is yours and everyone elses. The only type of belief that is not by choice are the beliefs of someone who is totally innocent. like a very young naivete child. they have no knowledge to give them an adverse idea.

now if you know for a fact, a scientific fact, that 100% of everyone believed in GOD then you could say that it is not a choice.

And techincally if belief was not a choice we would probably all be jewish or muslim which ever was first. Because you wouldn't have a choice between any of the religions there would only be one.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:33 AM #34
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Originally Posted by VanishPaintball View Post
Belief is not a choice. Belief is the result of experience, knowledge, and judgment. I can't "choose" to believe in god any more than I can choose to believe in unicorns, dragons, or trickle-down economics. Unless my mental faculties are somehow disabled, my brain will process the knowledge and evidence available and produce a probablistic result (a belief). Unless the variables change (new knowledge, different perspective for processing existing knowledge, etc.), belief doesn't change.

You currently believe that you are on Earth. Now choose to believe that you are on the moon. Please explain why you can't choose to believe that you are on the moon without discounting the ability to choose to believe in god, or anything else.
Well said. I also love that you put trickle down economics with unicorns and dragons where it belongs.

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Belief is a choice... knowledge an experiance will skew your beliefs therefore giving you a choice of weather or not to believe in something. kinda like fate or karma or coincidence... So do you believe kennedy was killed by a magic bullet? Wether you do or not that is a belief. not a religions belief, but a belief none the less. AND the choice is yours and everyone elses. The only type of belief that is not by choice are the beliefs of someone who is totally innocent. like a very young naivete child. they have no knowledge to give them an adverse idea.

now if you know for a fact, a scientific fact, that 100% of everyone believed in GOD then you could say that it is not a choice.

And techincally if belief was not a choice we would probably all be jewish or muslim which ever was first. Because you wouldn't have a choice between any of the religions there would only be one.
Neither was first and one is much younger than the other and younger even than Christianity. Please do some research. Lastly, you're not thinking deep enough to understand what vanish said.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:49 AM #35
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Belief is a choice... knowledge an experiance will skew your beliefs therefore giving you a choice of weather or not to believe in something. kinda like fate or karma or coincidence... So do you believe kennedy was killed by a magic bullet? Wether you do or not that is a belief. not a religions belief, but a belief none the less. AND the choice is yours and everyone elses. The only type of belief that is not by choice are the beliefs of someone who is totally innocent. like a very young naivete child. they have no knowledge to give them an adverse idea.
I'm sincerely trying to understand your perspective, but having trouble with your specific position and how you are arguing it.

I agree that "Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet" is a belief. I am arguing that holding this belief is not a choice. The information that exists in my brain does not lead me to the conclusion that Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet. In order to believe that Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet, several new pieces of information would have to become available to me which have nothing to do with choice.

For example, I have no reason to believe that magic bullets exist. I, therefore, do not believe that magic bullets exist. If magic bullets do not exist, Kennedy certainly was not killed by one. I, therefore, can not believe that Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet. To believe this would require somehow changing my knowledge of magic bullets while suspending my knowledge about the regular bullet that killed Kennedy. I can not choose to believe in magic bullets any more than I can choose to not know the information that I already have about Kennedy's assassination.

Please also expound on your idea about innocence precluding choice.

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now if you know for a fact, a scientific fact, that 100% of everyone believed in GOD then you could say that it is not a choice.
Only if you knew, for a scientific fact, why 100% of "everyone," or any sample population for that matter, believed in god.

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And techincally if belief was not a choice we would probably all be jewish or muslim which ever was first. Because you wouldn't have a choice between any of the religions there would only be one.
I do not think we are on the same page regarding what I mean when I say that belief is not a choice.

Let me first address your assertion about specific religions. My position that belief (in this case, belief in god) is not a choice does not in any way mean that there is only one possibility or that positive or negative belief is permanent. Belief is a result of information processing in the brain. Different individuals experience different information and process it in different ways, thus there would still be different beliefs (and different levels of belief, in cases of probablistic belief).

I am arguing that belief is not as simple as choosing between two equal alternatives.

I do not believe that there are monsters in my bedroom closet. I have heard people, usually innocent children, even my own daughter, tell me that there are monsters in closets. However, I have seen plenty of closets and have never experienced a monster in one. The confluence of my learning and personal experience regarding all things monstrous leads me to the conclusion that there are not monsters at all, especially in closets. The evidence for monsters is considerably weaker than the evidence against monsters. I do not choose to not believe in monsters, I either believe or I do not based upon my knowledge and experience.

The crux here is not the word "believe" but the word "choice."

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Old 12-21-2009, 07:37 AM #36
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Okay, but what logic supports this?
the fact that the resurrection occurs before final judgment in revelation. There is clearly a period in which everyone is dead before they are judged. I don't think everyone will be saved, but since God seems to be doing a pretty bad job of being able to convince people in this world it makes sense to me that he'd figure the whole afterlife part out later.

Also beak, I already said that the one unique thing in Christianity is actually giving your life for those that hate you. Beyond that, most religions or ethical codes are of course going to be similar since we're all human and have similar tendencies.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:15 AM #37
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Also beak, I already said that the one unique thing in Christianity is actually giving your life for those that hate you. Beyond that, most religions or ethical codes are of course going to be similar since we're all human and have similar tendencies.
Self-sacrifice for reasons which are perhaps not in your best interests is championed by numerous belief systems which predate Christianity. The pagan Romans were very into it in particular. Many gods and other mythological figures made sacrifices of themselves in the interests of others. The idea that one ought to make sacrifice of himself for the good of others, even if it may not be apparent to those people, is in a ton of pagan belief systems.

I really don't see anything new in Christianity from the religions which predated it. Personal relationship with the deity? Mithra and Isis. Deity who acts as a savior for humans? Horus. The list goes on and on. Christianity seems simply like a repackaging of other ideas.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:34 PM #38
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Yes.

Remember, I have no way of fully proving this, it's just what I believe.
That's cool man. What made you come to this conclusion?
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:40 PM #39
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Yes.

Remember, I have no way of fully proving this, it's just what I believe.
And do you believe you're one of those people predestined for heaven?
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:23 PM #40
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Originally Posted by 270KIDZ View Post
That's cool man. What made you come to this conclusion?
It just makes sense, to me at least.
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And do you believe you're one of those people predestined for heaven?
Yes.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:12 PM #41
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It just makes sense, to me at least.
Ya, I mean what lead you to believe this way? The bible? experience? other?

*I am not trying to question your belief but to understand it better.
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:31 PM #42
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Neither was first and one is much younger than the other and younger even than Christianity. Please do some research. Lastly, you're not thinking deep enough to understand what vanish said.
I was only trying to make a point that if what we believe wasn't a choice then shouldn't we all believe the same thing. because we wouldn't have a choice to argue because there wouldn't be conflicting evidence to choose between. and acording to many other people judaism was first out of the major 3 we have today. but even that wasn't the first...we would all be pagans.

also if what people believe wasn't a choice why would people change religions? wouldn't they be unable to unless god personally spoke to then and said you need to change...
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