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Old 12-18-2009, 01:26 PM #1
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Will

God creates man. God gives man choice. Man makes choice. God punishes man for choice.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:25 PM #2
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A father gives his son the keys to drive the father's car. The son takes the car, speeds, and gets a ticket. Is it fair for the father to punish the son?
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:22 PM #3
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Yes. The son made a bad decision. According to christianity I will go to hell because I don't believe in god. Am I guilty? No.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:31 PM #4
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Originally Posted by Smart Parts Player12 View Post
Yes. The son made a bad decision. According to christianity I will go to hell because I don't believe in god. Am I guilty? No.
It's your choice to believe in God or not.

Are you guilty? yes
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:36 PM #5
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Yes. The son made a bad decision. According to christianity I will go to hell because I don't believe in god. Am I guilty? No.
first of all, not all christians agree with this statement.

and secondly, this is dumb. Are you saying by giving a choice, you are responsible for the decisions that are made by the person you are offering the choice to? that's like...the opposite of logical.

You can certainly be responsible for influencing the person's decision, and if you wish to attack God with this line of thinking, that would be the right way to go. But just by positing that he has created and is therefore the impetus behind every decision the thing he created makes, is illogical.
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:25 PM #6
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Originally Posted by 270KIDZ View Post
A father gives his son the keys to drive the father's car. The son takes the car, speeds, and gets a ticket. Is it fair for the father to punish the son?
Why does God act like a human being who lent his car to his son? I really get a kick out of these parent metaphors considering God isn't an imperfect human trying to raise his kids right the best he can, he's a perfect deity supposedly. Either believe the latter and stop using that stupid father metaphor, or admit that God is imperfect.
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:51 PM #7
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first of all, not all christians agree with this statement.

and secondly, this is dumb. Are you saying by giving a choice, you are responsible for the decisions that are made by the person you are offering the choice to? that's like...the opposite of logical.

You can certainly be responsible for influencing the person's decision, and if you wish to attack God with this line of thinking, that would be the right way to go. But just by positing that he has created and is therefore the impetus behind every decision the thing he created makes, is illogical.
In our culture, we attack the enablers more than the ones who actually carry out the crime. We pursue drug dealers more than drug users, failed education systems as opposed to specific students or faculty, we pursue McDonalds as opposed to the people who directly made the hot coffee or the person who spilled the coffee.

To many Americans, it is bad to commit a crime but it's even worse to give one the ability to commit a crime.

It's popular to currently say "it wasn't him, it was the system he was in!" Blame the overarching, ambiguous entities as opposed to specific people.
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:35 PM #8
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first of all, not all christians agree with this statement.

and secondly, this is dumb. Are you saying by giving a choice, you are responsible for the decisions that are made by the person you are offering the choice to? that's like...the opposite of logical.

You can certainly be responsible for influencing the person's decision, and if you wish to attack God with this line of thinking, that would be the right way to go. But just by positing that he has created and is therefore the impetus behind every decision the thing he created makes, is illogical.
Why would an omnipotent deity create humans that are capable of defying his wishes?
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:38 PM #9
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In our culture, we attack the enablers more than the ones who actually carry out the crime. We pursue drug dealers more than drug users, failed education systems as opposed to specific students or faculty, we pursue McDonalds as opposed to the people who directly made the hot coffee or the person who spilled the coffee.

To many Americans, it is bad to commit a crime but it's even worse to give one the ability to commit a crime.

It's popular to currently say "it wasn't him, it was the system he was in!" Blame the overarching, ambiguous entities as opposed to specific people.
unfortunately, very true.
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:45 PM #10
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God creates man. God gives man choice. Man makes choice. God punishes man for choice.
Not really. It's more like this: God creates man with sinful nature. Man sins. God provided Christ to redeem people from their sins. God sends sinners to hell. Everyone is going to hell.
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A father gives his son the keys to drive the father's car. The son takes the car, speeds, and gets a ticket. Is it fair for the father to punish the son?
Not the same thing. The father didn't give his son a tendency to speed, nor did he provide a temptation that would cause his speeding tendency to act.

All Christians look at this the wrong way. They use free will to determine that we screwed up. God effectively eliminated free will by giving us a tendency to sin, allowing a temptor to tempt us, and expecting us to sin. You either serve the will of God or the will of sin. There is no free will. God made us sin so that his glory may be revealed in the salvation of all.

Last edited by xXpbdudeXx : 12-18-2009 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:14 PM #11
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Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
first of all, not all christians agree with this statement.

and secondly, this is dumb. Are you saying by giving a choice, you are responsible for the decisions that are made by the person you are offering the choice to? that's like...the opposite of logical.

You can certainly be responsible for influencing the person's decision, and if you wish to attack God with this line of thinking, that would be the right way to go. But just by positing that he has created and is therefore the impetus behind every decision the thing he created makes, is illogical.
Unless that entity imbues in you a tendency to do the exact OPPOSITE of what it wants you to do. Think about it logically and you will see why free will is impossible is you believe that man has a sinful nature.

So, you, smart parts player and 270kids are all looking at this the wrong way because there is no such thing as free will.
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:40 AM #12
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Not really. It's more like this: God creates man with sinful nature. Man sins. God provided Christ to redeem people from their sins. God sends sinners to hell. Everyone is going to hell.
everyone?

Quote:
All Christians look at this the wrong way. They use free will to determine that we screwed up. God effectively eliminated free will by giving us a tendency to sin, allowing a temptor to tempt us, and expecting us to sin. You either serve the will of God or the will of sin. There is no free will. God made us sin so that his glory may be revealed in the salvation of all.
disagree. while you are tempted to sin you are also tempted to follow the Lord. If christianity wasn't tempting than why do 33% of the people in the world follow Christ?

Sin and Love both tempt us. Its our decision, or free will, to choose which to follow.


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So, you, smart parts player and 270kids are all looking at this the wrong way because there is no such thing as free will.
Man's Free Will to do Good or Evil

Throughout Scripture the Bible continuously instructs mankind to make righteous decisions by free will. Many persons misinterpret a few verses to arrive at the false idea that mankind does not have a free will to do good or make righteous decisions. Below are some verses which strongly show that mankind has the responsibility to exercise his free will and is commanded by God to do so.

Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today [is] not [too] mysterious for you, nor [is] it far off. 12 "It [is] not in heaven, that you should say, `Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13 "Nor [is] it beyond the sea, that you should say, `Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 "But the word [is] very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Romans 2:10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain [it]. 25 And everyone who competes [for] [the] [prize] is temperate in all things. Now they [do] [it] to obtain a perishable crown, but we [for] an imperishable [crown].

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and [before] Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep [this] commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:54 AM #13
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Why would an omnipotent deity create humans that are capable of defying his wishes?
the line of thinking is that a relationship cannot exist unless all parties have the ability to "opt-out". otherwise, you're interacting with robots.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:56 AM #14
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how about:

god creates man. god does not tell man which religion is right. man chooses a religion. god punishes man for eternity with the most painful methods of torture.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:58 AM #15
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how about:

god creates man. god does not tell man which religion is right. man chooses a religion. god punishes man for eternity with the most painful methods of torture.
see that last part is what doesn't make total sense to me, so that's why I think you can totally view the Bible as "this is what I want you to choose, but if not, I'll try again later".
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:28 AM #16
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see that last part is what doesn't make total sense to me, so that's why I think you can totally view the Bible as "this is what I want you to choose, but if not, I'll try again later".
I can see that, but it's just so terribly ambiguous. God had to have known that the Bible would become less and less believable as scientific knowledge progressed. Maybe a more timeless form of revelation would have been better?
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:30 AM #17
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see that last part is what doesn't make total sense to me, so that's why I think you can totally view the Bible as "this is what I want you to choose, but if not, I'll try again later".
Yeah...I mean, but that is the problem with arguing the logic behind religion. You make an argument against a religion and then someone brings out some "interpretation" which makes the argument no longer valid. Or they will say, "well god is all powerful so he could do this..." Which is TOTAL bull****. Because what happens is, religious people have an infinite way of justifying their beliefs with this logic and yet those who are not in favor of religion have a finite amount of arguments that can be made.

So look, if you (and I am speaking to everyone) argue in favor of the Bible all point must be taken out of the Bible and no stupid interpretation or "well god is all powerful so he could..."
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:01 PM #18
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I can see that, but it's just so terribly ambiguous. God had to have known that the Bible would become less and less believable as scientific knowledge progressed. Maybe a more timeless form of revelation would have been better?
perhaps, but with very few points of disagreement, most people and cultures at least idealize principles laid out in the bible, if not actually follow them or put them in practice.

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Yeah...I mean, but that is the problem with arguing the logic behind religion. You make an argument against a religion and then someone brings out some "interpretation" which makes the argument no longer valid. Or they will say, "well god is all powerful so he could do this..." Which is TOTAL bull****. Because what happens is, religious people have an infinite way of justifying their beliefs with this logic and yet those who are not in favor of religion have a finite amount of arguments that can be made.

So look, if you (and I am speaking to everyone) argue in favor of the Bible all point must be taken out of the Bible and no stupid interpretation or "well god is all powerful so he could..."
the problem is that a text does not exist without interpretation, because just by reading it your are interpreting. I would think all christian scholars believe they found their findings in the Bible, and often people will quote the exact same text for opposing purposes. I always say, the complicated or possibly nonsensical parts of the bible must agree with the sensible parts. The sensible parts are that:

a) your position in this life doesn't mean as much, just be content
b) love others as you would want to be loved/as god loves you if you believe. this includes those who would do harm to you or your family, which many people understandably have a problem with.

beyond that, there's not much people could agree on. there are obviously nuances and such but I feel these are main points.
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Old 12-20-2009, 07:43 PM #19
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Its our decision, or free will, to choose which
that's incredibly debatable.
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Old 12-20-2009, 08:28 PM #20
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Okay, but what logic supports this?

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see that last part is what doesn't make total sense to me, so that's why I think you can totally view the Bible as "this is what I want you to choose, but if not, I'll try again later".
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:50 PM #21
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that's incredibly debatable.
true. thats why i supported my answer with bible verses...
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