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Old 12-24-2009, 08:09 AM #22
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Originally Posted by Spock View Post
Whatever rules they were breaking that made him decide to kill them.
This takes place well before Moses and the 10 commandments so I'm not sure what rules you could be referring to.

What we do know is that they were exceedingly wicked and can judge how much so by the fact the the whole city gathered to gang rape a couple of strangers. Now I don't travel a lot but I do some, and I can assure you I personally am glad that there is a prohibition against such activities and don't feel that that prohibition is stupid in the least.

Then again I've never read anywhere that "city wide gang rape of stranger" is expressly forbidden, but I assume most people understand it's something they shouldn't do.

So.... what rules?
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:18 PM #23
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Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
This takes place well before Moses and the 10 commandments so I'm not sure what rules you could be referring to.

What we do know is that they were exceedingly wicked and can judge how much so by the fact the the whole city gathered to gang rape a couple of strangers. Now I don't travel a lot but I do some, and I can assure you I personally am glad that there is a prohibition against such activities and don't feel that that prohibition is stupid in the least.

Then again I've never read anywhere that "city wide gang rape of stranger" is expressly forbidden, but I assume most people understand it's something they shouldn't do.

So.... what rules?
Had God tried to fix this without genocide?
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:39 PM #24
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..What if God had left them to their own devices? What bad could have come from it other than all those people continuing to live in sin? What harm were they doing to anyone but themselves by living in sin? Was having a bunch of sex really that terrible? So let them all get STD's, what does God care? If they don't listen to his prophets, forget them.

I think the problem people have is that God used genocide as a means to an end. No matter what the context, that's going to look pretty bad. Why does an almighty, benevolent God need to murder a bunch of people who have separated themselves from his grace? It doesn't jive with the God of the New Testament.
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Had God tried to fix this without genocide?
So which is it? Have God leave them to their own devices or should He do something about it?
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:29 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
This takes place well before Moses and the 10 commandments so I'm not sure what rules you could be referring to.

What we do know is that they were exceedingly wicked and can judge how much so by the fact the the whole city gathered to gang rape a couple of strangers. Now I don't travel a lot but I do some, and I can assure you I personally am glad that there is a prohibition against such activities and don't feel that that prohibition is stupid in the least.

Then again I've never read anywhere that "city wide gang rape of stranger" is expressly forbidden, but I assume most people understand it's something they shouldn't do.

So.... what rules?
But if you're familiar with the story you'll remember that the man who was harboring the strangers in his house told the crowd that he would not hand them over, but they could have his virgin daughters instead and do whatever they want with them.

Then god rewarded him for showing such great parenting skills. If this happened today it'd be called child prostitution and the guy would go to jail for a long time, and if he claimed he was trying to protect two angels who were staying at his house he'd spend the rest of his life in the loony-bin.
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:09 AM #26
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But if you're familiar with the story you'll remember that the man who was harboring the strangers in his house told the crowd that he would not hand them over, but they could have his virgin daughters instead and do whatever they want with them.

Then god rewarded him for showing such great parenting skills. If this happened today it'd be called child prostitution and the guy would go to jail for a long time, and if he claimed he was trying to protect two angels who were staying at his house he'd spend the rest of his life in the loony-bin.
So.... what exactly is your point again?
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:42 AM #27
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Had God tried to fix this without genocide?
Yea it's called the whole prophet Lot thing. I'm sure you know about Sodom and Gomorrah. Sending a prophet to try and show them the right path was clearly not enough. The Old Testament makes it clear sodomy is punishable by death and God also passed that knowledge on to the prophets who came after Lot.
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:46 AM #28
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Who knows? Probably has something to do with committing indiscriminate mass murder because he's pissed that people weren't following his stupid rules.
I don't consider telling two men not to stick their dicks up each others ***** a "stupid rule". Apparently you do, and us religious people are suppose to be the crazy ones
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:17 AM #29
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Yea it's called the whole prophet Lot thing. I'm sure you know about Sodom and Gomorrah. Sending a prophet to try and show them the right path was clearly not enough. The Old Testament makes it clear sodomy is punishable by death and God also passed that knowledge on to the prophets who came after Lot.
Why is it punishable by death? Is there a reason for such an arbitrary law or is it just a "because I said so" sort of thing?
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:03 AM #30
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You don't need to look too far (especially in this country) to see the problems that homosexuality, promiscuity, and adultery create. I don't need to list them, as anyone who denies this simple fact will get nowhere in a debate with me. I personally view homosexuality, and its acceptance, as an underlying cause for the erosion of basic moral standards.

Religiously, it is clear God intended women to mate with men. I don't care what occurs in nature with other animals. Humans are not the typical "animal". Animals eat their young and eat their own ****, should humans do that also? From an Islamic perspective, they should be killed because they have outright defied mans purpose of life as given by God. They have reached a point of no return, and a homosexual feels no shame before God or Gods creation. The Prophet Muhammad said: 'There is nothing I fear for my Ummah more than the deed of the people of Lot.'" I can see why he feels this way, just look at what this country has become!

But...

"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 4:16)
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:52 AM #31
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Originally Posted by SuperSupra619 View Post
You don't need to look too far (especially in this country) to see the problems that homosexuality, promiscuity, and adultery create. I don't need to list them, as anyone who denies this simple fact will get nowhere in a debate with me. I personally view homosexuality, and its acceptance, as an underlying cause for the erosion of basic moral standards.

Religiously, it is clear God intended women to mate with men. I don't care what occurs in nature with other animals. Humans are not the typical "animal". Animals eat their young and eat their own ****, should humans do that also? From an Islamic perspective, they should be killed because they have outright defied mans purpose of life as given by God. They have reached a point of no return, and a homosexual feels no shame before God or Gods creation. The Prophet Muhammad said: 'There is nothing I fear for my Ummah more than the deed of the people of Lot.'" I can see why he feels this way, just look at what this country has become!

But...

"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 4:16)
Enlighten me. What problems does homosexuality create?
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:57 AM #32
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Enlighten me. What problems does homosexuality create?
It makes people like him feel icky.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:17 AM #33
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Just so it's clear, I've never heard of the idea of Lot being a prophet taught in Church nor do I read that in the Bible. Lot separated from Abram so that they wouldn't quarrel and most likely was spared as a favor to Abram. That's how I read it.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:43 AM #34
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Enlighten me. What problems does homosexuality create?
Homosexuality and promiscuity go hand in hand. I would love to see some statistics that show the rate of promiscuous sex and unwanted pregnancies by year, but I'm sure these don't exist. I'm willing to bet it has been slowly rising every year as the media puts no limits on sexuality in the youths mind when they tell them that being gay is "ok". They see that if its ok for two men to have sexual contact (which is seen as an extreme), then it must be ok for them to do whatever they like. Now we have 12 year old girls having sex and getting pregnant in middle school. I could also talk about the rapid spread of HIV/AIDS, but that is not needed. I believe homosexuality would have more standing among us religious folk if it wasn't almost 100% synonymous with lust, pornography, and random sex. There is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust. Show me one gay person who waits until they are "married" to have sex. Show me the straight people who have pride parades of themselves through the streets naked and engaging in disgusting rituals for everyone to see. Only homosexuals, no one else (besides porn stars ) exhibit behavior like this. (When a straight person runs around naked in public, hes ridiculed, arrested, thrown in jail, and forced to register as a sex offender)

(Homosexuality = Promiscuity) =/= Good for society

It is nothing more then a perversion, just like bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, etc. The only difference is this perversion is starting to be accepted by society.

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Old 12-30-2009, 12:01 PM #35
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Originally Posted by SuperSupra619 View Post
Homosexuality and promiscuity go hand in hand. I would love to see some statistics that show the rate of promiscuous sex and unwanted pregnancies by year, but I'm sure these don't exist. I'm willing to bet it has been slowly rising every year as the media puts no limits on sexuality in the youths mind when they tell them that being gay is "ok". They see that if its ok for two men to have sexual contact (which is seen as an extreme), then it must be ok for them to do whatever they like. Now we have 12 year old girls having sex and getting pregnant in middle school. I could also talk about the rapid spread of HIV/AIDS, but that is not needed. I believe homosexuality would have more standing among us religious folk if it wasn't almost 100% synonymous with lust, pornography, and random sex. There is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust. Show me one gay person who waits until they are "married" to have sex. Show me the straight people who have pride parades of themselves through the streets naked and engaging in disgusting rituals for everyone to see. Only homosexuals, no one else (besides porn stars ) exhibit behavior like this. (When a straight person runs around naked in public, hes ridiculed, arrested, thrown in jail, and forced to register as a sex offender)

(Homosexuality = Promiscuity) =/= Good for society

It is nothing more then a perversion, just like bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, etc. The only difference is this perversion is starting to be accepted by society.

Well put
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:14 PM #36
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Originally Posted by SuperSupra619 View Post
Homosexuality and promiscuity go hand in hand. I would love to see some statistics that show the rate of promiscuous sex and unwanted pregnancies by year, but I'm sure these don't exist. I'm willing to bet it has been slowly rising every year as the media puts no limits on sexuality in the youths mind when they tell them that being gay is "ok". They see that if its ok for two men to have sexual contact (which is seen as an extreme), then it must be ok for them to do whatever they like. Now we have 12 year old girls having sex and getting pregnant in middle school. I could also talk about the rapid spread of HIV/AIDS, but that is not needed. I believe homosexuality would have more standing among us religious folk if it wasn't almost 100% synonymous with lust, pornography, and random sex. There is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust. Show me one gay person who waits until they are "married" to have sex. Show me the straight people who have pride parades of themselves through the streets naked and engaging in disgusting rituals for everyone to see. Only homosexuals, no one else (besides porn stars ) exhibit behavior like this. (When a straight person runs around naked in public, hes ridiculed, arrested, thrown in jail, and forced to register as a sex offender)

(Homosexuality = Promiscuity) =/= Good for society

It is nothing more then a perversion, just like bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, etc. The only difference is this perversion is starting to be accepted by society.
I don't see how homosexuality is any more inherently promiscuous than heterosexuality.
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:42 PM #37
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Because most homosexuals place no value on a monogamous sexual relationship. Many times homosexual "couples" even include a third person. The member Overbear and his multiple live-in partners is a perfect example of this. HIV rates for gay men are growing at an alarmingly higher rate then straight men, because homosexuals are more promiscuous. Look at Bathhouses for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bathhouse

If that type of behavior isn't considered more promiscuous then normal, then nothing is.
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:54 PM #38
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Because most homosexuals place no value on a monogamous sexual relationship. Many times homosexual "couples" even include a third person. The member Overbear and his multiple live-in partners is a perfect example of this. HIV rates for gay men are growing at an alarmingly higher rate then straight men, because homosexuals are more promiscuous. Look at Bathhouses for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bathhouse

If that type of behavior isn't considered more promiscuous then normal, then nothing is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothel

HIV rates are higher in gay men because the microtearing of the rectum makes it easy for STIs to be passed, but that doesn't mean they are more promiscuous.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:04 PM #39
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The difference is that at a Brothel you must PAY. Money brings a whole new variable into the equation. While the men visiting the brothels ARE being promiscuous (and outright disgusting), the women offering the services are not doing it for pure fun and pleasure. She may feel she is doing it out of necessity in order to make money for her family, or she was forced into it (all too common now a days), or a number of reasons. I doubt there are that many prostitutes who truly enjoy doing what they do. All of this doesn't make it acceptable, but it pushes it away from being labeled as pure promiscuity. And regardless, the common understanding of Brothels and prostitution is that they are disgusting, immoral, and generally looked down upon. Why would this be any different for a bathhouse?

When men visit a bathhouse, they do so for no other reason but for fun and pleasure. No one receives anything but sexual gratification.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:09 PM #40
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The difference is that at a Brothel you must PAY. Money brings a whole new variable into the equation. While the men visiting the brothels ARE being promiscuous (and outright disgusting), the women offering the services are not doing it for pure fun and pleasure. She may feel she is doing it out of necessity in order to make money for her family, or she was forced into it (all too common now a days), or a number of reasons. I doubt there are that many prostitutes who truly enjoy doing what they do. All of this doesn't make it acceptable, but it pushes it away from being labeled as pure promiscuity. And regardless, the common understanding of Brothels and prostitution is that they are disgusting, immoral, and generally looked down upon. Why would this be any different for a bathhouse?

When men visit a bathhouse, they do so for no other reason but for fun and pleasure. No one receives anything but sexual gratification.
Fine, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinging
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:31 PM #41
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I've already said, of course promiscuity is not only limited to homosexuals. Of course heterosexuals partake in the same type of things. But I am willing to bet that multiple partners are much more prevalent in the homosexual community. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that homosexuality is nothing more then a perversion of the mind, and with its acceptance brings a whole new flood of immoral ideologies with it. I believe it is a moral disease, and it is the most unnatural way of life.

Since I came here to express nothing but my personal beliefs, I'm going to leave my discussion of the topic at that.
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:50 PM #42
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I've already said, of course promiscuity is not only limited to homosexuals. Of course heterosexuals partake in the same type of things. But I am willing to bet that multiple partners are much more prevalent in the homosexual community. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that homosexuality is nothing more then a perversion of the mind, and with its acceptance brings a whole new flood of immoral ideologies with it. I believe it is a moral disease, and it is the most unnatural way of life.

Since I came here to express nothing but my personal beliefs, I'm going to leave my discussion of the topic at that.
As you should. Do you even know any real homosexuals? Or do you only know the stereotype you've seen in the media? Your entire view is based on nothing but your own opinion with no real facts. You also view straight relationships in a very 50's cut and dry way which isn't the way things actually work in the real world. How do you contend with the research that says people are born gay and it isn't a choice? Kids are getting pregnant these days because of poor parenting and the internet, not because they see gay people doing it and think it must be okay. What two consenting adults do behind closed doors has no effect on your life and is no business of yours. No mater how you try to phrase it or justify it, your entire opinion is nothing more than "gays are icky and I don't like them". You're no better than eric was when he tried to equate all of Islam with 9/11 because of a few bad examples.
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