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Old 12-18-2009, 09:54 AM #1
markcheb
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What's wrong with this..?

Recently in CK this portion of the Bible was alluded too (I can only assume it was this one..?) in a negative light.


Genesis 19:24-25(nrs)
24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 and he overthrew those cities, and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.


I believe large scale injustice needs to be punished, and Who better than God to sort it out? (as frightening as that prospect is to me.)

So why is this portion of the bible so unpalatable to some?
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:59 AM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
Recently in CK this portion of the Bible was alluded too (I can only assume it was this one..?) in a negative light.


Genesis 19:24-25(nrs)
24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 and he overthrew those cities, and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.


I believe large scale injustice needs to be punished, and Who better than God to sort it out? (as frightening as that prospect is to me.)

So why is this portion of the bible so unpalatable to some?
Not familiar with this portion of the bible, but wasn't Sodom punished because of homosexuality? I think thats what makes it unpalatable to many...
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:05 PM #3
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Genesis 18 reads:
20 Then the Lord said, "How great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah and how very grave their sin!

After some "haggling" Abraham worked God down to:

32 Then he said, "Oh do not let the Lord be angry if I speak just once more. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it."

It would seem to me that God destroyed them because there were not at least ten righteous people to be found in the city. I don't read anything about homosexuality in it.
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:11 PM #4
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Is genocide ever justified against a population that one considers immoral? What if God had left them to their own devices? What bad could have come from it other than all those people continuing to live in sin? What harm were they doing to anyone but themselves by living in sin? Was having a bunch of sex really that terrible? So let them all get STD's, what does God care? If they don't listen to his prophets, forget them.

I think the problem people have is that God used genocide as a means to an end. No matter what the context, that's going to look pretty bad. Why does an almighty, benevolent God need to murder a bunch of people who have separated themselves from his grace? It doesn't jive with the God of the New Testament.
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:25 PM #5
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Where exactly would an "outcry" come from if there were no victims?

Does a lion "murder" a man when it eats him? No, only in cartoons. So why is it "murder" when God kills a sinful man, who is as unlike Him as he is of a lion?
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:22 PM #6
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^So then it's okay to kill those that don't act in accordance with your beliefs? That is essentially the tact you're taking. If so you must agree that it is acceptable for Muslims to kill on behalf of their faith. Before you say it's different if God does it let me just ask this. Doesn't God control everything and thus when a suicide bomber kills isn't it God actually doing it through the vessel of the bomber?
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:39 PM #7
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^So then it's okay to kill those that don't act in accordance with your beliefs? That is essentially the tact you're taking.
This isn't the tact I'm taking actually. Nice try. I am asking, what is wrong with what God does in this passage. Many people point at it cry: "See God of the bible is bad" I want to know why?
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:10 PM #8
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This isn't the tact I'm taking actually. Nice try. I am asking, what is wrong with what God does in this passage. Many people point at it cry: "See God of the bible is bad" I want to know why?
It's exactly the same thing. He's killing people who don't listen to him as opposed to the God of the New Testament who just let's you drift away from him through sin. There's an inconsistency there and please don't cry "context!" at me, that's besides the point.

Also, were there children in the two cities? Did God mean to wipe them out too or was that just collateral damage? People cry that out because he just took out a bunch of human beings that he apparently loves a great deal. The only way to defend it is argue about context and semantics.
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:31 PM #9
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Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
This isn't the tact I'm taking actually. Nice try. I am asking, what is wrong with what God does in this passage. Many people point at it cry: "See God of the bible is bad" I want to know why?
A lion killing a man is not bad because we assume the lion has no conscious recognition of its actions or of morality/immorality. God, we assume, does.

And yes, you are claiming that it is alright to kill one who has been separated from your beliefs and is not like you.
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Does a lion "murder" a man when it eats him? No, only in cartoons. So why is it "murder" when God kills a sinful man, who is as unlike Him as he is of a lion?
Finally, we assume that the lion kills out of necessity. What War Beak is saying is that God did not kill out of necessity but out of whim. Why did He have no other recourse than to annihilate the entire inhabitants? Surely God, who is capable of anything, has alternative courses of action which He could have taken other than killing.
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:43 PM #10
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The only way to defend it is argue about context and semantics.


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A) And yes, you are claiming that it is alright to kill one who has been separated from your beliefs and is not like you.


B) Finally, we assume that the lion kills out of necessity. What War Beak is saying is that God did not kill out of necessity but out of whim. Why did He have no other recourse than to annihilate the entire inhabitants? Surely God, who is capable of anything, has alternative courses of action which He could have taken other than killing.
A) What "beliefs" does God have?

B) Unless of course you disagree with His course of action that is.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:35 PM #11
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Doesn't God control everything and thus when a suicide bomber kills isn't it God actually doing it through the vessel of the bomber?
Man's Free Will to do Good or Evil

Throughout Scripture the Bible continuously instructs mankind to make righteous decisions by free will. Many persons misinterpret a few verses to arrive at the false idea that mankind does not have a free will to do good or make righteous decisions. Below are some verses which strongly show that mankind has the responsibility to exercise his free will and is commanded by God to do so.

Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today [is] not [too] mysterious for you, nor [is] it far off. 12 "It [is] not in heaven, that you should say, `Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13 "Nor [is] it beyond the sea, that you should say, `Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 "But the word [is] very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Romans 2:10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain [it]. 25 And everyone who competes [for] [the] [prize] is temperate in all things. Now they [do] [it] to obtain a perishable crown, but we [for] an imperishable [crown].

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and [before] Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep [this] commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:47 PM #12
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Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
Is genocide ever justified against a population that one considers immoral?
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God is perfect. Sin is imperfection. They don't mix.


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What harm were they doing to anyone but themselves by living in sin? Was having a bunch of sex really that terrible?
Maybe we don't always know what's best for us.

•Teenager girls who have sex are 2x more likely to commit suicide than girls who practice abstinence. ("Point of View" Dec 10, 2004)
•Teenage boys who have sex are 7x more likely to commit suicide than boys who are sexually abstinent. (ibid)
•Many studies have found that those who live together before marriage have a considerably higher chance of eventually divorcing. The reasons for this are not well understood. In part, the type of people who are willing to cohabit may also be those who are more willing to divorce. There is some evidence that the act of cohabitation itself generates attitudes in people that are more conducive to divorce, for example the attitude that relationships are temporary and easily can be ended.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:52 PM #13
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while I tend to side more with beak on this issue, I will say there is at least some idea of why, in this and other cases, death was the correct remedy for a problem.

I don't find the answers particularly satisfying, but supposedly killing these people was the necessary response to prevent their beliefs from spreading and infecting the "chosen people" and the example God was trying to set up. Now we can obviously question that, but it comes down to saying whether our ability to imagine a better solution actually contests the validity of God's supposed solution. I would argue that it doesn't.

Another thing to remember is that life and death are (relatively) meaningless to God. If you don't believe in a metaphysics of an afterlife, obviously killing someone would be the worst possible thing to do. But according to the guidelines the Bible is working under, allowing someone to spread sin would be a much worse fate. That's definitely something I'm not prepared to defend, since I find the whole afterlife thing to be pretty incomprehensible. But I'd assume someone a bit more knowledgeable on the subject could defend or at least explain that line of reasoning.

I can answer your question about children by saying that it isn't specific so there's no real definitive answer lol.

I think a lot of this is ironically God accommodating people vs. God wanting to do all this. The old covenant was one of a certain peoples who were a political entity. All this conquering and such was how one secured a body polis in that time, and so God assisted in that endeavor since it was his intention to establish a political power that would reflect him. Again, as to asking why he went about it this way there are a variety of cool and interesting answers that just about anyone can find a reason to disagree with. I guess it again comes down to a question of whether us imagining a "better alternative" means that we're right and God was wrong. I don't think it does, but that's a whole other discussion.

As to why God "switched gears" away from politics in his new covenant, that's a long discussion, again with a variety of answers. Unfortunately, we've seen that just because God's intention to not make his followers a political powerhouse is readily apparent, Christians went along and wanted to do it anyways. Irony, eh?

I digress. In conclusion, I don't know exactly why God decided to do it. But I think that are a few ways of looking at it that are fairly logical that don't require us to simply say "well if the Bible is true, God is evil" and leave it at that. I'm not particularly qualified or motivated to go into an actual detailed discussion, but I feel I've done a bit to at least lay the outline for one, perhaps?
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:44 PM #14
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Man's Free Will to do Good or Evil

Throughout Scripture the Bible continuously instructs mankind to make righteous decisions by free will. Many persons misinterpret a few verses to arrive at the false idea that mankind does not have a free will to do good or make righteous decisions. Below are some verses which strongly show that mankind has the responsibility to exercise his free will and is commanded by God to do so.

Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today [is] not [too] mysterious for you, nor [is] it far off. 12 "It [is] not in heaven, that you should say, `Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13 "Nor [is] it beyond the sea, that you should say, `Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 "But the word [is] very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Romans 2:10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain [it]. 25 And everyone who competes [for] [the] [prize] is temperate in all things. Now they [do] [it] to obtain a perishable crown, but we [for] an imperishable [crown].

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and [before] Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep [this] commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
I don't remember saying I was talking specifically about the Christian god. You can quote the bible as much as you want, but a book of fables written by men means nothing to me. You might as well quote stories about Odin. If God is omnipotent and created everything (past, present and future) he created everything that ever has or will happen which means everything that happens is done by God. Now people will and have come up with explanations for free will but they are doing the same thing as the writers of the bible and that is making up their own beliefs(which is fine). Now I don't believe any of this because I lack a belief in a god or gods, but to look at it logically you can't say God doesn't control everything.

Also I can quote the bible as well.

You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16).

What are we to do then? First, we are to trust in the Lord, knowing that He is in control (Proverbs 3:5-6)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?” Daniel 4:35
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:28 PM #15
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God is a God of justice and judgement both in old and new testament;the people were exceedingly wicked and God gave them a chance to repent and they refused.God still showed mercy even in His judgement...saving Lot and those who would go with him and allowing Lot to stop in Zoar and in doing so saved that city.
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:17 AM #16
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I was going to give a very ******* remark...then I realized that markcheb posted it, so I won't old friend

But in all seriousness, this is completely pointless. If you find anything wrong with the Bible, it shouldn't be about specific events. Your findings should have something to do with the logic behind the religion itself and its ultimate consequences. Because even if you do have a problem with these few verses, it does not prove the bible wrong. Hate it all you want, but it will not change the truth that its based on.
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:09 PM #17
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Recently in CK this portion of the Bible was alluded too (I can only assume it was this one..?) in a negative light.


Genesis 19:24-25(nrs)
24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 and he overthrew those cities, and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.


I believe large scale injustice needs to be punished, and Who better than God to sort it out? (as frightening as that prospect is to me.)

So why is this portion of the bible so unpalatable to some?
Who knows? Probably has something to do with committing indiscriminate mass murder because he's pissed that people weren't following his stupid rules.
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:34 PM #18
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...because he's pissed that people weren't following his stupid rules.
What rules?
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:54 PM #19
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What rules?
Whatever rules they were breaking that made him decide to kill them.
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Old 12-23-2009, 07:19 PM #20
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sodomy anyone?
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Old 12-23-2009, 07:27 PM #21
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Originally Posted by I don't find the answers particularly satisfying, but [b
supposedly killing these people was the necessary response to prevent their beliefs from spreading and infecting the "chosen people" and the example God was trying to set up.[/b] Now we can obviously question that, but it comes down to saying whether our ability to imagine a better solution actually contests the validity of God's supposed solution. I would argue that it doesn't.

Another thing to remember is that life and death are (relatively) meaningless to God. If you don't believe in a metaphysics of an afterlife, obviously killing someone would be the worst possible thing to do. But according to the guidelines the Bible is working under, allowing someone to spread sin would be a much worse fate. That's definitely something I'm not prepared to defend, since I find the whole afterlife thing to be pretty incomprehensible. But I'd assume someone a bit more knowledgeable on the subject could defend or at least explain that line of reasoning.
This actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I had sincerely not thought about this context.

Of course, this argument requires a few presuppositions. First, that the chosen people are more important than other people. This is definitely consistent with a lot of the Bible, more OT than NT, but incompatible with the feel-good Christian "he came to save us all" idea. Also, there's free will implications, god's foreknowledge implications, and the fact that if there is free will, God took away the chance for anyone to come to faith in the future.
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