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Old 02-04-2016, 01:30 PM #1
mueller
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Crossfire tanks illegal • SP14339 permit expired! - Tanks legal again thanks to Ninja

FINAL UPDATE: They are legal again thanks to Ninja Paintball!!!

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Originally Posted by John View Post
Ninja Paintball has gone above and beyond for paintball players everywhere. Today, Ninja managed to secure a special permit for ALL SP14339 tanks. They are all legal again!







Crossfire's SP-14339 permit expired as of 1/2016.

This means SP14339 tanks --- of which there's many, born as recently as 2014 - are illegal to fill, retest or operate.

• Crossfire is aware & sounded to be looking into it as of a month ago, but hasn't been responsive lately
• PHMSA hasn't received any renewal materials

If you have a SP14339 you might want to help encourage Crossfire to renew. Until they do, your tank is technically unusable & illegal.

CrossFire, Inc
2980 Interstate Parkway
Kalamazoo, MI 49048
269-383-1111
chris@crossfireinc.com
kelly@crossfireinc.com

DOT SP14339 (this probably won't be updated fast if they do renew)
.
.
.
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Last edited by mueller : 02-07-2016 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:34 PM #2
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If they were made before the permit expired why are they illegal?
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:52 PM #3
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If they were made before the permit expired why are they illegal?
The pmhsa allows the special permit holder to make, use and hydro those tanks as long as the permit is valid.

If the permit is not renewed or they find someone did something wrong they can pull or suspend the permit so the tanks are not used anymore.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:36 PM #4
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So my Ninja tank with that same dot number can no longer be used? Or no longer be retested? I love that candy red tank!!
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:38 PM #5
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So my Ninja tank with that same dot number can no longer be used? Or no longer be retested? I love that candy red tank!!
Any tank with that sp 14339 cannot be filled or hydro tested
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Old 02-10-2016, 10:51 PM #6
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Dang, my Crossfire Rockstar Energy tank has that number.
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Old 02-11-2016, 12:20 AM #7
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Ugh that sucks. That means I have two tanks(one ninja, one crossfire) I can't use
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Old 02-11-2016, 01:08 AM #8
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I'll have to check mine
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:14 AM #9
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Send a note to Crossfire or leave them a voicemail asking them to renew it - you'll help both yourself and the larger community if you help convince them to do so.

Note they changed their phone message to "flare fittings incorporated" in the past week, which is Crossfire's other business line. Same owner:
Crossfire / FFI
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Old 02-11-2016, 03:32 PM #10
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Whew mine's sp14387. So if other company's tanks have the illegal number are they able to renew it? Does it fall completely onto crossfire?
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:20 PM #11
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Do you all want to be the pot, or the kettle?

The entire paintball community essentially ignores DOT rules, including just about everyone reading this. Most places abide by the hydro date.. but who here knows if it's a fake or real re-hydro sticker... I've got a roll of them at home. That's where paintball's interest in the DOT regulations end, and the violations start racking up.

The DOT regulates the use of the bottles in the transportation of materials within them.

Technically, if you fill and use it at the field, and drain it before getting on any public road. no laws have been violated.

I know, I know, many of you will say, but you wouldn't know if they drained it, so don't fill it right? ok, lets handle that one shall we.

EVERY person who handles the tank must by law be trained with formalized training and documentation in the hazmat regulations. Now... how many people working at the fields have hazmat training do you think? Technically, they are not allowed to fill, or in any way assist in filling tanks.

49CFR171.8 defines a HAZMAT employee as one who, among other things, is employed by a hazmat employer and who in the course of employment directly affects hazardous materials transportation safety. This term includes an individual, including a self-employed individual, employed by a hazmat employer who, during the course of employment loads, unloads, or handles hazardous materials.
Furthermore. 1910.101 Compressed gases (general requirements) provides for: (a) Inspection of compressed gas cylinders. Each employer shall determine that compressed gas cylinders under his control are in a safe condition to the extent that this can be determined by visual inspection. Visual and other inspections shall be conducted as prescribed in the Hazardous Materials Regulations of the Department of Transportation (49CFR parts 71–179 and 14CFR103). Where those regulations are not applicable, visual and other inspections shall be conducted in accordance with Compressed Gas Association Pamphlets C–6, C-6.2, C-6.2 and C6.3 which are incorporated by reference as specified in 1910.6.

How many times have you had your tank visually inspected at a field.


Now.. Visual inspections... lets get on this soapbox shall we. A visual inspection means visually inspecting the entire cylinder. There cannot be a sticker on the bottle if it's to be inspected, since you cannot inspect under a sticker. Covers of any kind including TAPE must be removed.

So while we get high and mighty on Crossfire for not renewing the special permit, lets not forget that nearly every single field in america violates the rules... yet at the same time, they do not, since they are not themselves transporting the tanks.

I can legally fill every expired tank in the world, play with it all day long, as long as I don't allow it to be taken on a public road.

It's not illegal to fill the tank, it's illegal to USE the tank to transport materials on a public road, or any other manner of transportation.

Almost forgot... Self Fill stations.. now that's a can of worms isn't it... as far as I can see, no one is meeting the requirements from the DOT on those things. Since it's in conjunction with commerce, even if the air is free, its used in relation to the business, thus commercial, safeguards must be in place. there's nothing to prevent a 3000 tank from being filled to 4500, there's no one there visually inspecting at each fill.
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Old 02-11-2016, 11:47 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p8ntballsteve View Post
Technically, if you fill and use it at the field, and drain it before getting on any public road. no laws have been violated.
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It's not illegal to fill the tank, it's illegal to USE the tank to transport materials on a public road, or any other manner of transportation.
These claims fly in the face of the logic behind safety regulations and permitting. Continuing to use a heavily regulated pressure vessel after the permit has expired? Poor advice.

In addition, one of the largest and most popular tank manufacturers in the US disagrees with you:

Quote:
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Any tank with that sp 14339 cannot be filled or hydro tested
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Old 02-12-2016, 12:22 AM #13
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^ Also been on the phone with PHMSA (the guys who issue the permits) to confirm. Tanks are not usable.

Crossfire manufactured & sold tanks through 2014. They didn't go under and they're aware this permit expired but didn't renew (yet, not holding breath...) Now, products they sold for a tidy profit 20 months ago, that should be good for 15 years with basic maintenance, are unusable.

I wouldn't describe an opinion that they've stuck it to their former customers as ""High and mighty" by any stretch. This tank is <20 months old, would you like to be the guy that paid ~$130-140 for it 1.5 years ago?
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Last edited by mueller : 02-13-2016 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:36 PM #14
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Ive never been to a field that actually checks tanks in any way shape or form.

Also, does everyday joe blow know about DOT and permits? I bet more than half the people think Ninja makes their own tanks.
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Old 02-12-2016, 02:21 PM #15
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Everyday Joe shouldn't have to worry about any of it assuming companies meet the basic obligations for their product

There's eleventy billion govt. regulations on the car you drive everyday, but it's implicit when you bought that car that the product is good-to-go and you don't have to worry about it. Not quite the same but you get the idea, tanks should work the same way.

My field checks tanks regularly.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:35 PM #16
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I tend to stand far back when someone is filling a tank. Or right behind them so if anything happens they are my shield lol

For all I know they are filling a tank that expired 4 years ago.
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:55 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mueller View Post
Everyday Joe shouldn't have to worry about any of it assuming companies meet the basic obligations for their product

There's eleventy billion govt. regulations on the car you drive everyday, but it's implicit when you bought that car that the product is good-to-go and you don't have to worry about it. Not quite the same but you get the idea, tanks should work the same way.

My field checks tanks regularly.
Is every employee who handles the tank hazmat certified?


Parasite. I agree it's poor advise, that was not what I was doing I was pointing out that regulations are not followed, and what the law specifically states. It's like stopping someone for driving drunk and gicing them a ticket for having a headlight out. Yes you did let them know they committed a violation, but ignored a bigger problem.

As far as ninja for advice, yes they are the largest today, but I was working to fight the misuse and flat out disregard for DOT rules before they made thier first regulator. I gave up because there is not a single field in america who follows all the DOT rules they should be following.


The fact of the matter is the fields are picking and choosing the laws they follow. They should follow this one, but why then are they ignoring so many others.
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Old 02-13-2016, 06:44 PM #18
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This pisses me off. I've been out of the game for a few years got my gear out last week and noticed my tank was expired so I stopped by my local shop to get my tank re hydro'd as it expired 12/15. Found out today now I have a paper weight.

Where's the class action lawsuit at?
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Old 02-13-2016, 06:48 PM #19
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My ninja tank has that number (14339) on it. It also has 3 yrs left on the hydro. Just because a permit expired doesn't mean my tank is less safe than it was when the permit was valid.
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Old 02-13-2016, 07:28 PM #20
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My ninja tank has that number (14339) on it. It also has 3 yrs left on the hydro. Just because a permit expired doesn't mean my tank is less safe than it was when the permit was valid.
I agree, and you are certainly allowed to fill and use it yourself, but you cannot transport it on a public road. Businesses are also not allowed to let you use it if they are going to making any kind of money as a result of it (IE a field is responsible if they allow you to use)


Now technically, if you fill it yourself, on a private land, and do not transport it off the land, and in no way are making any money off it it. no laws have been broken.



But since a NINJA rep said that you cannot get it filled, maybe they'll send a free replacement to you.
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Old 02-14-2016, 02:02 AM #21
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