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Old 11-30-2009, 10:19 PM #1
eyeownyu
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is the gen 4 suppost to be this finicky

i replaced all poppet orings, and ram orings, and used dow 55 on the whole gun. i set up the gun just like how it says, by putting both regs to flush. then slowly increasing the lpr to desired pressure, then adjust hpr for velocity.

but the thing is this works sometimes, and sometimes it doesnt. this past sunday, the gun wasnt working in the morning. i would set the pressures, but when i increased the lpr, it would just start to leak down the barrel, and the gauge would read zero.

then i set it down and use my dm for a bit, i come back, and reset the regs, and try and adjust the pressures again, and it works this time. the lpr leaks everywhere but 45 psi (which is the recommended pressure by lurker for the eigen ram which i have) if it would be a little high it would leak, and same with a little lower. The gun ran smoothly for pretty much the rest of the day, except one incident where the gun just gushed air down the barrel randomly, until i turned the air off, then back on, and it was fine running again.

so is there a problem that is causing my timmy to be so finicky?

PS my dwell was at 6 and lpr at 45 when it was running fine.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:23 PM #2
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hpr may be too high, if it is it kicks the poppet oring off, and it resets, and then kicks it off again. lower the hpr and you should be fine.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:33 PM #3
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well ill try that, but when the gun leaks the hpr is flush. and when i had the gun working 280 fps was about 3 turns in from flush. so i dont think it would be too much.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:37 PM #4
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You putting lube on poppet? had to keep mine pretty dry to not have the probs your describing,would also switch out the reg to kinda narrow **** down.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:43 PM #5
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i lube only the front and back orings on the poppet, not the middle one, as told by some people in these forums.

i shall try a different reg right now.

EDIT: same problem with hyper 2 reg off my dm
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Last edited by eyeownyu : 11-30-2009 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:23 AM #6
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up your dwell and lower your hpr.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:11 AM #7
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how is dwell going to help if my gun cant even seal correctly though?
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:37 AM #8
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so you can lower you hp more
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:04 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeownyu View Post
how is dwell going to help if my gun cant even seal correctly though?
Gen4's are balance valve poppet guns, if you have your lpr set to low the hpr will over come the force of the spring and lpr psi and cause a leak.

Set your settings back to stock and go from there.

Also make sure you didnt get any lube on the middle poppet oring.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:07 AM #10
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With the LPR higher/lower, is the leak from the same location, or is the lower pressure leak from the ram, while a higher pressure leak is down the barrel?


Such symptoms would be consistent with the spring I provide having weakened somewhat over time. I will provide a new one, or you can simply shim with washers to increase the spring tension, if this is the case.

If the ram/noid system is what leaks at low pressures, you may try replacing the front ram oring again after having soaked an 006 in dow55 overnight (or just let them swell a bit more). The noid can be weird at very low pressures, we had gen4s getting velocity down at the 30s LPR psi in testing but it just isn't healthy for the gun that low.

The poppet sticking issue suggests that maybe 1 point higher on dwell and a little lower on HPR would be optimal for your gun, IMO.

Let me know what you think.

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Old 12-01-2009, 05:23 PM #11
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dwell @ 6 and LPR at 45psi

I bet if you raise your dwell so that the gun's firing cycle takes a bit longer, it will run more smoothly.

6ms of dwell time is not that much with a LPR pressure that low.
the lower the pressure, the longer/higher dwell needs to be.

try setting the dwell so that when you dry fire, it just barley hits the valve. then raise dwell by 2 and chrono.

now just keep the LPR where it is and chrono your gun with the dwell at 6,7,8,maybe 9 or 10 and see which setting allowed your gun to shoot the best.

take note that a general thing with PBguns is higher LPR = consistent chrono. lower LPR = smoother shot.

with high LPR the dwell does not need to be very high

with low LPR the dwell needs to be higher to compensate for the lack of LPR pressure
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:45 PM #12
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Do you have the delrin or the brass poppet in the marker?
If it's the delrin that could be part of your problem.
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:02 PM #13
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its the brass, lurker i will see where it leaks from, but i have a bunch of family over right now, so i will get to it later. dont wanna scare the babies
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:02 PM #14
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he should still have the brass poppet, (previous owner)

Sometimes That gun caused me all sorts of problems when I put on the wrong sized oring, (always made that mistake) double check that you have right sizing in the gun.
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:49 PM #15
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Ya it sounds like the spring is too soft to overcome the balancing effect. Try to shim it like lurker said, just to see if that solves your problem. If it does. then leave it like that until you can get a newer one from Lurker.

Like he said, running a low LPR pressure will require you to have a tighter, better fitting ram oring as well. That lower pressure won't swell the ram oring to the same degree as a stock 80psi would.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:27 PM #16
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ok lurker so i tried what you said. so this is what happens

i turn the hpr to flush, and then increase the lpr from zero. the lpr gauge starts to move and gets to about maybe 20 psi while it is leaking from the ram, then if i increase anymore the lpr gauge goes to zero and starts to leak rapidly down the barrel.

PS same thing happens if i turn the hpr pressure down even more, like 2 turns out (less pressure) from flush.

Quote:
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Like he said, running a low LPR pressure will require you to have a tighter, better fitting ram oring as well. That lower pressure won't swell the ram oring to the same degree as a stock 80psi would.
im using dow 55 on both ram orings so it should be pretty tight fitting. i was originally using lurker lube, but then thought i should try dow 55 to see what a tighter fit would do.

and how would i go about shimming the spring. would i put something inside the rocket cap?
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Last edited by eyeownyu : 12-01-2009 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:11 PM #17
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Your causing the regs to become unbalanced.

From flush turn the hpr in about 3 turns(before having air on) then set your lpr to 65psi.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:17 PM #18
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What's happening at high LPR pressures is that the poppet is actually being forced open by the LPR pressure at rest. This is pretty normal on an eigenrammed gen4, but usually it happens up around 70psi. This is a big reason why the stock gen4 spring is so heavy.

The spring is 7/32" outside diameter. A couple washers of that or similar size in the rocket cap will adjust your tension up and let the LPR go slightly higher without issue. This will also fight against any poppet stick. My guess is that the spring has a bunch of cycles on it and is "loosening up" with time.

The sealing issue at low LPR pressures is due to the front ram o-ring - shaving the bottom of the bolt pin (so the bolt doesn't press down on the ram AT ALL) will help this issue. Shouldn't be needed, though.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:48 PM #19
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this poppet stick that your talking about, is that what i described when i said my gun randomly started bursting air in the middle of a game?
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Last edited by eyeownyu : 12-01-2009 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:05 PM #20
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i think i have found the culprit.....

how easily problems can be solved when i just take apart the damn poppet

that little piece was just sitting around in the rocket cap
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:45 PM #21
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yea, and 5 coils is not enough to do the job properly - I wonder if it got nicked in the grinder we use to flatten the ends out...
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