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Old 11-27-2009, 11:25 PM #85
270KIDZ
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Originally Posted by ἔρως-φιλία-ἀγάπη View Post
If you have a literal translation, most of these problems are alleviated. Take any version that's translated word for word (so that it is without author or translator interpretation) and it gives you the ability to interpret it however you want. I've been reading Young's Literal Translation lately. It is a word for word translation. Translator's put their own interpretations often in the Bible based on what they think it means and that's why many Bible versions are impure. They should not be interpreted at all by the translators, but only by the readers.
Sorry, I didn't get your point. And I completely agree. Or just learn Greek. Not that hard.
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:38 AM #86
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Originally Posted by 270KIDZ View Post
An error is an error and an ignorant person is normally ignorant.

Mustard Plant vs. Mustard Tree
The seed of a mustard plant is small right? Wrong. It's not big but it's certainly not the smallest of seeds. Then what seed do you think Jesus, residing in the middle east, is talking about???

How about the seed of the Salvadora persica? or by common name "The Mustard Tree". We can assume he is talking about this because guess what... It has tiny seeds. Like specks of dust.

Salvadora persica:
Salvadora persica is a tree, normally growing to 6-7 meters tall.
Native : Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc
The leaf is somewhat bitter and aromatic, with a taste likened to mustard.


I guess you were right about something there. An error is an error. Maybe this will teach you a lesson. Just because you think you know something is wrong doesn't always make it so.
Ignorance cuts both ways. I am familiar with the argument for Salvadora Persica. At no point did I make any claim to have exhaustively discussed any and all perspectives or contentions with the list of errors I provided. You asked what errors people were talking about when they discusses biblical inconsistency with science. I tossed a few common ones out. It's interesting that you did not bring up the S. Persica in your initial rebuttal. Perhaps you did not have time to Google it until your follow-up reply.

The theory that S. Persica is the mustard of the Bible is a contentious one. It has merit, but I personally doubt that this is the correct conclusion. I am not alone.

http://www.odu.edu/~lmusselm/plant/bible/mustard.php

You can assume that S. Persica is the mustard of the Bible. Your assumption is irrelevant to me and in absolutely no way strengthens (or diminishes) the actual case for its validity. Your claim that "we can assume" is a bit bold. Some people actually like to consider both sides of something like this before assuming.

Ad hominem attacks do not impress anyone around here.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:12 AM #87
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Originally Posted by VanishPaintball View Post
You asked what errors people were talking about when they discusses biblical inconsistency with science. I tossed a few common ones out. It's interesting that you did not bring up the S. Persica in your initial rebuttal. Perhaps you did not have time to Google it until your follow-up reply.
You used the issue of a mustard herb growing into a tree as a biblicaly inconsistency with science. I find it interesting that someone who is "familiar" with the Salvadora Persica would bother to bring it up without clarification because it kind of ruins your argument. Sounds fishy to me...

Secondly how is this even a scientific inconsistency to begin with??? Answer: Its not. You felt that if you wrote a long list people would skim over it and make it seem like the Bible is largely inconsistent when the majority of your topics were obviously metaphorical and had no merit to begin with.

QUOTE=VanishPaintball;63455780]The theory that S. Persica is the mustard of the Bible is a contentious one. It has merit, but I personally doubt that this is the correct conclusion. I am not alone.
[/quote]

Firstly your website is wrong is several accounts. (Just got off work, don't feel like typing a novel. Maybe I'll edit it in later. Probably not since this entire conversation is such a waste of breath saying that this isn't even a scientific discrepancy)

Secondly, anyone with half a brain could deduce that the plant in reference is the Salvadora Persica. It by far has the smallest seeds of any plant that could be in reference.

QUOTE=VanishPaintball;63455780]I
Ad hominem attacks do not impress anyone around here.[/quote]

False. I didn't "attack" the person instead of the argument because a rebuttal was made. I "attacked" the argument and then told you that you were wrong. That isn't Ad hominem. Nice try though.

(Ad hominem has to be the most incorrectly used word on this forum btw)

Here is your fallacy list to name a few:
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam
Vagueness
Over-precision
Argument By Gibberish
Appeal To Authority
"Moving The Goalposts" Fallacy
Common Sense
Argument By Laziness

Ok some of those were just for fun :-)
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Last edited by 270KIDZ : 11-29-2009 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:21 AM #88
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Sigh.
@270Kidz

If you really need to win the "mustard tree" issue so you can sleep at night, you can have it. I still perceive it as dubious. I still am not convinced by the case for S. Persica. In the interest of ending this absurdly circular "debate," you win. Since neither of us can ask Jesus to corroborate, we're all just guessing anyhow.

It's adorable that you feel qualified to say what I felt. I hardly think that I gave a long list. In fact, I deliberately gave a short, simple list in response to a simple question which didn't seem to warrant anything more. The door was wide open for anyone to discuss any or all of the issues I listed. Also, even if someone read my post and took the entire thing at face value with absolutely no prior knowledge or follow-up research, I hardly think that anyone would conclude the Bible to be "largely inconsistent."

Finally, and most importantly, you are obviously correct to say that any scientific inaccuracy can be explained away by pleading metaphor and allegory. Of course, one could probably explain away the existence of god and Jesus in the bible the same way with little more effort.

The question is this: if you already knew that you could (and would) simply claim "metaphor" to anything that comes up as inconsistent, why ask in the first place. Historical, scientific, and linguistic inaccuracies or inconsistencies only really matter in a literalist context. You're obviously not a literalist, so you knew before asking the question that you didn't care what the answer was.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:44 AM #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanishPaintball View Post
The question is this: if you already knew that you could (and would) simply claim "metaphor" to anything that comes up as inconsistent, why ask in the first place. Historical, scientific, and linguistic inaccuracies or inconsistencies only really matter in a literalist context. You're obviously not a literalist, so you knew before asking the question that you didn't care what the answer was.
The majority of metaphors we are talking about here came from parables and by definition are metaphors used to teach a lesson. As I pointed out before, after the parables are taken away, there aren't any real "historical, scientific, and linguistic inaccuracies or inconsistencies" that can't be clearly and fully understood with a small amount of research (or larger in some particular cases; for example creation requires a bit of knowledge in BBT and Relativity)

If you already knew that one could simply claim "metaphor" to anything that comes up as inconsistent, why ask in the first place? Because every metaphor is clearly metaphorical, so it's not really an issue.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:56 AM #90
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-World is not center of universe
-Is not flat
-and evolution is accepted scientifically.

If the bible has a single misspelling, it could not have been written by god, look to your own holy book before dismissing things as metaphors.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:07 PM #91
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Originally Posted by T-Vizz the 2nd View Post
-World is not center of universe
-Is not flat
-and evolution is accepted scientifically.

If the bible has a single misspelling, it could not have been written by god, look to your own holy book before dismissing things as metaphors.
Can you please provide verses for those 3 points???

Found this in an article. Makes a few good points.

In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space—the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. By 150 B.C., the Greek astronomer Eratosthenes had already measured the 25,000-mile circumference of the earth. The round shape of our planet was a conclusion easily drawn by watching ships disappear over the horizon and also by observing eclipse shadows, and we can assume that such information was well known to New Testament writers. Some people may have thought the earth was flat, but certainly not the majority.
Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth since the verse refers to angels standing at the "four corners" of the earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's rising and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving. Bible writers used the "language of appearance," just as people always have. Without it, the intended message would be awkward at best and probably not understood clearly. When the Bible touches on scientific subjects, it is entirely accurate.


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If the bible has a single misspelling, it could not have been written by god
Why not?
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:42 PM #92
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Originally Posted by 270KIDZ View Post
Sigh
@VanishPaintball



The majority of metaphors we are talking about here came from parables and by definition are metaphors used to teach a lesson. As I pointed out before, after the parables are taken away, there aren't any real "historical, scientific, and linguistic inaccuracies or inconsistencies" that can't be clearly and fully understood with a small amount of research (or larger in some particular cases; for example creation requires a bit of knowledge in BBT and Relativity)

If you already knew that one could simply claim "metaphor" to anything that comes up as inconsistent, why ask in the first place? Because every metaphor is clearly metaphorical, so it's not really an issue.
Let me try to explain this as clearly as posible:

You asked, at the time seeming sincere, for a list of "scientific errors" in the bible.

You were provided with a number of them.

You responded by claiming that any scientific errors were, in fact, metaphors.

If you knew that you would explain away the unexplained or unexplainable by saying that each case is a metaphor, why did you ask the question in the first place?

You apparently knew at least some of the issues that would be raised. You also apparently knew that you would point to those issues as obvious metaphors. If you are not a Biblical literalist, you can call anything a metaphor.

You are basically trolling your own thread.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:52 PM #93
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Originally Posted by VanishPaintball View Post
You asked, at the time seeming sincere, for a list of "scientific errors" in the bible.
People were speaking of the Bible as it was scientifically inaccurate so I wanted to know what they thought was so inaccurate. You provided me with a list, mostly coming from parables. I told you that the obvious metaphors are metaphors. You threw a hissy fit.

Now stop talking.
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:38 PM #94
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If the bible has a single misspelling, it could not have been written by god, look to your own holy book before dismissing things as metaphors.
No one actually claims it was written by God. Anyone who does is an extreme fundamentalist.

Even if the texts were perfect and consistent when they were written, different translations, different languages, different connotations, changing to promote social, political, and scientific norms of the time. Whether you believe the Bible is the word of God or not, it has been changed and corrupted through the ages. Anyone who believes that we today have the Bible as it was meant, is, again, an extreme fundamentalist.

@270: You are being offensive and attacking VP for being "wrong." Don't even try to say that you're not, because I could easily point out everywhere in which you did.

@VP: Don't worry about him. Apparently he fails to see that people have different perspectives. I think your posts are honest and I very much enjoy the link you gave to the SAB. I think I will be using that a lot.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:25 AM #95
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Originally Posted by ἔρως-φιλία-ἀγάπη View Post
No one actually claims it was written by God. Anyone who does is an extreme fundamentalist.

Even if the texts were perfect and consistent when they were written, different translations, different languages, different connotations, changing to promote social, political, and scientific norms of the time. Whether you believe the Bible is the word of God or not, it has been changed and corrupted through the ages. Anyone who believes that we today have the Bible as it was meant, is, again, an extreme fundamentalist.

@270: You are being offensive and attacking VP for being "wrong." Don't even try to say that you're not, because I could easily point out everywhere in which you did.

@VP: Don't worry about him. Apparently he fails to see that people have different perspectives. I think your posts are honest and I very much enjoy the link you gave to the SAB. I think I will be using that a lot.
Thanks for the kind words. I assure you, closed-minded children on internet forums do not register on my list of worries. I'm quite happy to occupy the high ground. Frankly, the only reason I took the "debate" this far was for the benefit of anyone who was honestly interested in the issue at hand. Now that the issue is lost, I'd be chasing my tail to continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 270KIDZ
Now stop talking.
I honestly LOLed so hard at this.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:16 AM #96
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What the hell does discussion about Darwin and his theories do in "religion"-section?
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:04 PM #97
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What the hell does discussion about Darwin and his theories do in "religion"-section?
Evolution by natural selection is a secular explanation for a great many aspects of biology which many religions attribute to acts of god. In many cases, these acts of god (when interpreted literally from scripture) contradict with observable data and with scientific theories such as Darwin's. In this particular case, the conflicts are largely from the Biblical book of Genesis, specifically the creation of man, plants, and animals. Additionally, a literalist reading of Genesis, among some other, less-notable issues, (espoused by so-called "Young Earth Creationists") is not consistent with the hundreds of millions of years of biological and geological data.

Nothing Darwin said was religious or philosophical, it was (and is) scientific. The reason it gets a lot of religious folk fired up is that the science conflicts with aspects of their faith.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:57 PM #98
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What the hell does discussion about Darwin and his theories do in "religion"-section?
Because we don't have a science forum.
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:48 PM #99
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i understand that you strongly "believe" in Jesus, but how can you honestly say the bible was 100% from god's mouth when it was written by people?

also, the only reason you look past the so called "little details" (details including the fact that people did not live with dinosaurs) is because they disprove your 100% true bible that came straight out of god's mouth.
It it well est. that the bible was written by normal Joshmo humans?
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:38 AM #100
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Once you accept Jesus in your life you will see that the little "details" that you get caught up in are nothing compared to the big picture. Oh, and the bible is 100% true because it's 100% fact from god's mouth. God said it, I believe it, that's all I need to know.
your ****ing dense.
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:38 AM #101
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your ****ing dense.
Both your spell check and your sarcasm detector must be broken.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:17 PM #102
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your ****ing dense.
I think it's funny that the least intelligent people are the first to accuse others of being stupid.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:02 PM #103
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I think it's funny that the least intelligent people are the first to accuse others of being stupid.
No, you're stupid!

Edit: ur*
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:20 PM #104
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I think it's funny that the least intelligent people are the first to accuse others of being stupid.
It's okay man, at least you have faith. We should pray for him though.

Praying...
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:22 PM #105
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Both your spell check and your sarcasm detector must be broken.
Firefox's spell check doesn't fix grammar mistakes, just spelling ones.
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