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Old 11-18-2009, 02:31 PM #64
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Honestly I 100% disagree. Thats like saying Jeff, why not just play d2-d3 and win against 30-40 teams? Why would you only want to be better than only 13 other pro teams?

I much rather play semipro and beat those 7 teams because they are the best 7 other than pro. Does the number of teams count? Does it matter when your talking about being the best?

If your competing than play at the level you should be playing at, not just because you can beat more teams at one level vs. the other.

d1 this year had like 10 teams...Its not like it was easier to win than if you had 20-30, it makes it actually harder...They take top 4, meaning you gotta smash those 10 other best teams in d1 to make it in. If there were more teams then you could have bunny teams that shouldn't be there that you could beat up on. Just like in 7man there was always those teams because there were so many teams in a division.

With the lack of people wanting to step up to the better divisions, you weed those teams out, the competition becomes tighter and harder, you still have to win the same amount of games, but now they are all a grind.

I would rather play d1 then d2 and i rather play semi pro than d1 any day.

Who cares about how many teams are in the division? They are the best.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:04 PM #65
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Benny - I think you've missed the point. In any other sport the top tier has the least amount of teams - take football - Pro teams - 32 (or so) - semi-pro - I have no idea (more then 32, because I know the Northeast has 12+ teams) - college - to many to count - high school - far more then college, etc..

How does it make sense that the D1 and Semi pro had less teams then the Pros. The reason is that people have choosen not to participate because it just doesn't make sense - for what ever reason you want to pick. I have to believe that paintball is the only sport where you have more Pro teams then Semi pro or D1 teams.

I was NOT saying I wanted to play D2 just to beat on teams. I was saying that it had more meaning when you had to end up on top of so many teams.

I'm guessing you and I will just have to agree to disagree - no big deal - we each have opinions.

P.S. - there isn't 30-40 D3 teams, let alone D2 teams now a days
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:28 PM #66
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I think, to clarify, Dave is saying that the national leagues and their divisions are false indicators because the best are not necessarily there (outside of the pro division) for reasons other than competitive ability.

If GSP left the UFC for Strikeforce, wouldn't the UFC title count for less?
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:34 PM #67
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would it hurt or help more to have cheaper entry as you go UP each division .

so the lower divisions are the most expensive.
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:15 PM #68
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Noel, that really could work in a way, but the PSP is trying to bring teams in. If they want to get teams to stay in the PSP, they will start throwing low prices at them, then bam, the next season they have to go up a division so the price will have to go up. Its the nature of the league.

Its not just the d1 or the semi pro leagues that are taking a hit. There are less teams in all the divisions. D1 and semi pro have normally had less teams in them anyways, it all depends on the structure of the league and how many divisions there are. We will see a spike in teams competing in the PSP this season, so these numbers will change.

You start out d3, the price of paintball starts to get too much, and you have to quit and your team folds. Thats why half the teams that play d3 never make it to d2, let alone d1 or semi pro. It takes a dedicated team and hard work to move up division.
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:49 PM #69
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would it hurt or help more to have cheaper entry as you go UP each division .

so the lower divisions are the most expensive.
I think all that will do is make more teams that play lower due to only cost play the higher division.

I don't think it would help teams go up though because then people will be scared about playing higher ranked teams and just won't go to not pay the higher entrance.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:51 PM #70
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Thats fine, but still...

from d3 to semi pro the team numbers are on a perfect decline. more d3 than d2 than d1 than semi pro...the pro division is locked out so its not a fair comparison.

Im saying if there were teams out there that could compete at semi pro or even d1 they would be in those divisions.

We can agree to disagree but for the others following this im offering that out there.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:36 PM #71
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I think, to clarify, Dave is saying that the national leagues and their divisions are false indicators because the best are not necessarily there (outside of the pro division) for reasons other than competitive ability.

If GSP left the UFC for Strikeforce, wouldn't the UFC title count for less?
Well Fedor is in strikeforce but all the competition is in the UFC. He is the best heavyweight but doesnt compete against the best. Now the reason for this is from what i understand, contractual obligations with M-1. That is a legitimate reason but i still expect to see him fight in the UFC one day.

Now why would a team that could do well nationally d1 or semi pro not compete. Is it money, does it not mean as much as it once did. Nobody that owns a paintball team does it for the money. They do it for the competition and excitment. Its kinda like gambling in vegas. You know the house always wins, but its still a blast.
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:50 AM #72
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Tyler,

I feel I'm beating a dead horse, but ....

I have a team that could compete in D1 Nationally. If they wanted to get beat for a year - maybe even Semi Pro (threw that in for Benny)

We don't play nationally

Why (in order of importance):
1) It cost a bunch - the best players usually aren't the ones that can actually afford to play
2) Time away from the family and business and for the players work or school - I'm much less likely to take my son out of college to go play paintball somewhere for 3 or 4 days - 4 or 5 times a year
3) It doesn't mean as much as it once did (Maybe that's just me, but since I'm paying a lions share of the bills it's my opinion that matters)


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Old 11-20-2009, 05:59 AM #73
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I'll chime in here as someone who has money and looked at playing nationally for the upcoming year.

It costs a lot of money. You aren't guaranteed to be playing the best competition (anyone with money can put a team in - I am the perfect example of that), and more importantly, it costs a ton of TIME.

Now, are the majority of the D1 teams out there better than D2 teams, sure. Is that a talent piece? Not entirely. Paintball is all about opportunity and investment. Unlike other sports, where pure talent without finances can lead to greatness (how many rags to riches stories do we see all the time about football, basketball, tennis, etc.), paintball requires an immense capital investment. To be a great basketball player, you need talent, ability, time, a 10 dollar basketball, and access to any one of the hundreds of thousands of public basketball courts in the United States. To be great at paintball, you need talent, ability, time, 30-75 dollars a week minimum, and access to thousands of dollars of equipment every year. Now obviously that is an exageration on the equipment, but in all reality, Vicious isn't out there playing with Ions or pumps are they?

Cost factors into almost every decision you make when it comes to paintball. Cost does not factor in very much to the majority of other sports. When you play High School Football, they provide jerseys, pads, and footballs. All you need to do is have talent and be able to devote the time. High level ultimate frisbee teams that travel all over the world are run on budgets in the 1,000s. I don't mean like 8,000, I mean like 2,000. Other sports cost less in both equipment and playing, and the ones that generally cost more (golf and tennis for example) have public courts and courses, scholarship programs (Venus and Serena going from Compton to Bradenton on scholarship and family sacrifice). Finally, the Venus and Serena thing brings me to the last point: Sacrifice.

Sacrifice. You will often hear stories about families giving up a lot of things for their talented, athletic sons or daughters so they could pursue their dreams in a number of sports. The trick is, those kids have an endgame goal in mind. You give it all up when you are the mother of LeBron James because IF he makes it the NBA he is a millionaire. You give it all up if you are the parents of Colt McCoy or Tim Tebow. They are going to make millions of dollars.

The point is other sports are capable of providing incentives to sacrifice, and have assistance programs in place to see that the talented players truly can overcome the ones with means. In paintball, means is the primary thing you look for. Can he afford it, does he have rides, does he have gear? Look in every LF Players thread. Those questions are the first thing people ask. You don't see: Do you have heart? Do you have the will to win? Are you willing to put your blood, sweat, and tears into this?

Paintball ends up with all the left over athletes from other sports, then gets rid of anyone who doesn't have money and/or has a real Job where you can't take 20 days off a year. What we end up with are children with means or children who have found someone to sponsor them. So, to Benny's point: D1 paintball players are not the best players out there, they are the best players who have the time and the money and aren't interested in other sports. That kinda sounds sad when you think about it, honestly.

In other sports, talent and ability will overcome adversity. In paintball, it often doesn't due to money, time, and lack of any real payoff. (If my kid ends up being a great athlete, and I have to sacrifice everything for him, would I rather have him be a tennis player and travel the world and make millions of dollars, or support a paintball addiction and have him be 22 and careerless when the next 15 year old whose parents have MORE money shows up)

You wanna fix this sport? Fix the cost? Make it cheaper as you go. You'll get more talent at the higher levels that way. This sport has some of the highest attrition of progressive talent and it's due to COST. The only people who can afford to play this sport are people with REAL JOBS or children, or rich weirdos like me and my family. People with REAL JOBS are gone because they can't take the time. Children will not grow a sport without proper guidance. Rich weirdos like me have no idea what the **** we are doing.

End of Line.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:47 AM #74
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Jon,

Great post.

I'm not sure everyone will understand, but great post.

Dave
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:34 AM #75
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Quote:
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End of Line.
Sup, MCP?

Snowboarding is probably the sport closest to paintball in the terms you mentioned. Having to spend hundreds/thousands on gear, paying every weekend to play (although a season pass can offset that), can't just go down the street to do it, etc. However, there are lots of people that make a living doing it, it's far better recognized than paintball, it's in the olympics, etc. There is an endgame.

Would you say that the professional snowboarders are also people who are no good at other real sports? Or (and think about paintballers like this), are they just more passionate about snowboarding or did they happen to find that sport before others?

I don't think that all, or even most, paintballers are no good at (left over from) other sports, I just think they like paintball the best.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:03 AM #76
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I know I havent been in NE for 2 years but I am fully aware of every cost involved with Paintball. I am a business person and an athlete and have been in the sport of paintball since 93. I have seen every change in paintball imaginable and I even remember who the PLA is and who was on the original xpress team. Rich and I have run a d1 team as well as having a farm team and I have been good friends and even a roomate of Jeff. So my point is there isnt much I dont know about paintball, paintball players and paintball as a business.

Now first of all, you cant just jump into the sport of paintball and buy a team or throw money at it. It never works because the players you end up getting are never loyal and are only with you for the money. So that model doesnt work, the old NE United was a perfect example. On the other hand I completly agree you need money to bring in the best players because most good paintball players are broke. The trick is to have money to afford those players but that cant be why they play for you. Their has to be a sense of loyalty for those players. If not it will blow up.

Now as a business person if I see an investment I can buy into now that has the possibility for better returns in the future, i do it. What investors and business people dont realize is that when you hesitate the opportunity might have already passed you by. Paintball is an example of that and Jeff im going to use you as an example. If you mind email me. Anyway, the Hurricanes were a very good d2 team. And Jeff looked down the road at what was going on with paintball and realized that the pro divisions were going to be locked and he better get in while he could. 5-6 years later the Hurricanes are still in the Pro divison. They are the only pro team out of NE to ever last, they have there own gun, gear fans, etc...i think you get my point.

So all this being said, there seems to be a shift in paintball again and with the economy being bad its almost like a buying opportunity for a lot of people in paintball. Their are tons of players out there with no where to go. And it seems the opportunity to actually do something in the PSP and build something for the future so that 3-5 years down the road you have something meaningfull. The trick is to not hesitate when you see the opportunity and maybe play in a psp divison with 10 teams, knowing that you are building a foundation for the future. I have talked to a couple people and they see that. This is why i think NE paintball is going to look different next year.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:07 AM #77
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Would you like a dedicated thread to it?
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:16 AM #78
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Tyler,

You reference and Investment with a Payoff and you use Jeff as an example where the payoff was a team gun, team gear and a fan base. I can't speak for Jeff, but you might want to ask him how much he pays for the team and what is return on that investment is - I think he's still in the hole - meaning it's actually a poor investment.

In fact, in the past Jeff has likened his involvement with paintball as his hobby where he spends x dollars a year on paintball instead of a sailboat. That doesn't really sound like an investment.

I'm confident that being Pro has cost Jeff more money than he will ever make from the team.

Jeff may measure his ROI in something other then cash, but you left it to the imagination of the reader and drove their thoughts toward him making a cash return on the investment.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:25 AM #79
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Dave,

Have you seen my bling? I bank mad scrilla from this ****.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:33 AM #80
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Dave,

Have you seen my bling? I bank mad scrilla from this ****.
Wow, is all I have to say to that... LoL
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:33 AM #81
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Sup, MCP?

Would you say that the professional snowboarders are also people who are no good at other real sports? Or (and think about paintballers like this), are they just more passionate about snowboarding or did they happen to find that sport before others?

I don't think that all, or even most, paintballers are no good at (left over from) other sports, I just think they like paintball the best.
I agree.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:41 AM #82
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I have spoken to Jeff and I know how much he spends. I fully understand that there is not money to be made off of a paintball team. Now i have no intentions of ever trying to take a team pro, so im going to get that out there so Jeff feels better. But if I did, I would also have a store or field and use my team as a marketing tool to help direct business to it. For example Dave, i bet everyone in tournament paintball in NE knows 187 is connected to fox 4. So you might not be able to make money of 187 directly for paintball but I would imagine if you were a d1 or semi pro team going through the ranks. You could use the team as a marketing tool for Fox 4. And marketing is tough, you can put an ad in the newspaper and have people see it. But it wont register with them until the 3rd or 4th time. So does that mean the first couple times were useless and money wasted. No not at all, it was a necessary evil. Anyway, we have gotten way off track.

My point is playing nationally is a money pit. I know that. But you do it because its the best competition and if you think outside the box. There are ways to take advantage of a team as a marketing tool.
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:17 AM #83
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ok - so we all agree now - Playing Nationals is a money pit.

As for the Snowboarder discussion - that's an individual sport - the costs are much less (easier for me to sponsor one person then a team of people), the logistics are much easier (flights, hotel, etc.. for one person instead of a teams worth). The end game is much different - how much does shaun white make?

The funny thing is that in snowboarding the manufactures sponsor the top 1% or 2% of the riders (if that) - in paintball every team (rookie through pro) is looking for (and expecting?) hand outs.

Being a decent skier and racing for a mid level program - did my son get free lift tickets (No), did my son get free skies (no), did my son get free coaching (no).
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:51 AM #84
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Why is there more sponsorship in paintball? Or more expected sponsorship? Do kids the sponsorships are necessary because the pros have sponsorships? Maybe it's like how they think they need a brand new Ego every year to compete.
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