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Old 12-05-2010, 02:07 AM #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinkie69 View Post
I keep lawman hollow points in my .45. I honestly believe the exit wound would be the size of a grapefruit!
You do not want exit wounds with personal defense ammo. You want 1) penetration 2) trauma. "Knock Down" power is a complete phallacy. The new hollow points like Federal HST's and Cor Bon DPX's all penetrate 12-16" and will cause massive internal cavity injuries. A 10mm or .45 will not knock someone over or kill them when shot in an external body part. Point in case:

http://www.fox2now.com/news/ktvi-arn...?v=HWOWXdD80P8

Difference in FPS/ft pds for 9/40/45 are pretty minimal.....all make nasty cavity holes though.

After lots of research and debunking myths for a good CCW weapons/caliber I setled on the 9mm with the DPX or HST rounds. If 19+1 of those can't get it done, I am in a world of ****.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:38 PM #317
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Advice on a budding firearms hobbyist?
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:50 PM #318
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so now this thread seems to have turned into best pistol to kill people with.
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:55 PM #319
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Originally Posted by maniacwithagun View Post
so now this thread seems to have turned into best pistol to kill people with.
Don't you have a pistol?
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:46 PM #320
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shotguns/rifles no pistol though i do want the gun of dirty harold.

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Old 12-05-2010, 11:09 PM #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brules View Post
You do not want exit wounds with personal defense ammo. You want 1) penetration 2) trauma. "Knock Down" power is a complete phallacy. The new hollow points like Federal HST's and Cor Bon DPX's all penetrate 12-16" and will cause massive internal cavity injuries. A 10mm or .45 will not knock someone over or kill them when shot in an external body part. Point in case:

http://www.fox2now.com/news/ktvi-arn...?v=HWOWXdD80P8

Difference in FPS/ft pds for 9/40/45 are pretty minimal.....all make nasty cavity holes though.

After lots of research and debunking myths for a good CCW weapons/caliber I setled on the 9mm with the DPX or HST rounds. If 19+1 of those can't get it done, I am in a world of ****.
I guess we differ on opinion here. I want large, gaping exit wounds. I want as much tissue trauma from expansion as possible with a large hole to allow the most effective bleedout.

I can't follow the link you posted. But if your argument is that a person didn't die from a pistol shot from a .45, I don't follow your logic. Human sized animals walk away from and recover from high power, high calliber, controlled expansion bullets fired from rifles all the time. The difference is, and I think the same thinking applies, that a deer is much more likely to bleed out, or just plain die from shock, from a .30-06 shell than from a .243 shell if the shot is placed badly. Without medical attention, the person she shot with the 45/10mm is more likely to die from higher tissue damage/exit wounds than from a 9mm. That is the case Especially if there is no exit wound, since tissue can and does clog non-through bullet wounds and stops bleeding.
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Last edited by Torque : 12-05-2010 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:13 PM #322
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Originally Posted by maniacwithagun View Post
so now this thread seems to have turned into best pistol to kill people with.
Hey look! It's the cowardly *******!!
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:34 PM #323
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Using the lightest bullets available:

Max velocity with 9mm is 1440 using an 88g bullet

Max velocity with 10mm is 1500 using a 135g bullet

Max velocity with 45acp is 1260 using a 154g bullet


Using the heaviest bullet available

Max velocity with 9mm is 1050 with 147g bullet

Max velocity with 10mm is 1018 with 205g bullet

Max velocity with 45acp is 850 with 265g bullet


I'm not going to list out the ft/lb for each bullet at 7yds because I think just listing out the velocities with bullet weights should speak for themselves. Aside from the simple MPLAT of the larger bullet faces, the greater energy retention of the 10/45 at distance is huge.

Edit: Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the 9mm is total crap and no one should use it. I just think the 10mm (especially over the .40smallandwimpy) and 45 acp are better choices.
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Last edited by Torque : 12-05-2010 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:35 PM #324
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does me posting make u mad?
HA! No, it amuses me that you, literally, have nothing better to do.
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:09 AM #325
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If we're discussing these cartridges based solely on damage potential of what I assume is a core body shot, then semi-auto handguns are eclipsed by big bore revolvers. Take the S&W 500, in 350g hollow point, moving at 1,975fps for example. Now THAT will cause some trauma
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:49 AM #326
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If we're discussing these cartridges based solely on damage potential of what I assume is a core body shot, then semi-auto handguns are eclipsed by big bore revolvers. Take the S&W 500, in 350g hollow point, moving at 1,975fps for example. Now THAT will cause some trauma
LOL, true. Watching the S&W champ use that gun is amazing also. He uses a much smaller version than I have seen, but good Lord is he good with it.
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:55 AM #327
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From the wiki entry:

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A hollow point is an expanding bullet that has a pit or hollowed out shape in its tip, generally intended to cause the bullet to expand upon entering a target in order to decrease penetration and disrupt more tissue as it travels through the target. It is also used for controlled penetration, where over-penetration could cause collateral damage (such as on an aircraft). In essence, the hollow point bullet has two interrelated purposes: to increase its size once within the target, thus maximizing tissue damage and blood loss or shock, and by remaining in the target to expend all of its kinetic energy in the target, some of which will be lost if the bullet continues through the target..
You want frontal penetration (through jacket/denim etc), but you want it to stay inside the target to do as much damage as possible.

The 10mm was good in theory, but the FBI went away from it recently to the .40 S&W.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:30 AM #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brules View Post
From the wiki entry:



You want frontal penetration (through jacket/denim etc), but you want it to stay inside the target to do as much damage as possible.

The 10mm was good in theory, but the FBI went away from it recently to the .40 S&W.
Because of the recoil, not performance. That is a fact. The male agents much preferred the 10mm, but some of the females (smaller wrists) couldn't handle the recoil.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:43 AM #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brules View Post
From the wiki entry:



You want frontal penetration (through jacket/denim etc), but you want it to stay inside the target to do as much damage as possible.

The 10mm was good in theory, but the FBI went away from it recently to the .40 S&W.
That is also assuming maximum penetration for maximum tissue damage. ie. entering through the skin, passing through ALL of the tissue inside while expanding, and lodging beneath the skin on the other side of the body. That is also only saying that the bullet must stay inside to expend all its energy, making it "effecient". But if a bullet is expanding to its full potential, and exiting fully, more tissue trauma is happening than if a bullet on penetrates 75% of the body and stops. Again, bleed out is much more likely with a pass through. The only case where a non penetrating round is of concern, is like the article says "collateral damage" And even then, there is no guarantee, no matter what round you use, even a .22, that pass through will not occur.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:13 PM #330
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Been reading what you guys are saying about the hand guns. I would think that if it is for at home emergency personal defense you do want go in and stay. Not really arguing anything against bleed out, but if the bullet goes through the target then it can also go through a wall to and might cause harm to a family member in the worst possible scenario. Also, i think military has gone to smaller caliber for assault riffles to ensure a quicker death and not bleed out because it is considered a cruel warfare.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:43 PM #331
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Been reading what you guys are saying about the hand guns. I would think that if it is for at home emergency personal defense you do want go in and stay. Not really arguing anything against bleed out, but if the bullet goes through the target then it can also go through a wall to and might cause harm to a family member in the worst possible scenario. Also, i think military has gone to smaller caliber for assault riffles to ensure a quicker death and not bleed out because it is considered a cruel warfare.
Actually, the theory the JFK administration came up with was that if you wounded a soldier instead of killing him, it would take 2-3 people off the field instead of 1. Which, didn't work, but that's another story.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:20 PM #332
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real mean use bow and arrows to kill what ever comes at them.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:28 PM #333
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:15 PM #334
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reported everyone for being off topic
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:21 PM #335
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reported everyone for being off topic
Reported you for being Kevin's kid.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:34 PM #336
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Reported you for being Kevin's kid.
Reported you for pitching tents on a PG13 forum.

cwutididthere?

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