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Old 10-15-2009, 07:41 PM #43
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Originally Posted by bigman1416 View Post
Ok so lets step back and actually look at the situation we're discribing. We know we need 3 real types of paintball, Fun Rec, Recreational (Scenario/Woodsball) and Competitive (Tourny). Player attitudes have hurt the sport, the self entitlement tween coulture that came about from cheap fast guns. Basically an influx of young players with not enough supervision. Rec play is the key to every thing, from rec play players can look to either woodsball style or tourny style, there needs to be direction past the lower level. Play needs to be sporting but fair, safe and fun. There's too much paint in the air, period, dot, point.

What steps as a community can we take to actually push change? Granted alot of this is regional, demographics are different based on what's popular where, some regions may not have these issues, others maybe collapsing because of it. Alot of field owners, atleast in my area don't cap rates of fire, they think cause you bought equipment that could draw in the sky you should shoot as fast as you want, for me as a player, ref and photographer, that's an issue. There are reasons other sports cap speeds, mandate seemingly excessive protocals, for the betterment of the sports. Back in 03(?) the ASTM and industry leaders agreed to a 12 bps cap on all markers that could fire faster, it lasted 2 weeks, do we as a community want a ROF cap for all levels of play locked into markers from factory release? I say yes with the option for tounry players to adjust it for their event, I love shooting fast, but on the field is creates issues, even seasoned players that get 3-5 more shots cause the paint's already in the air get angry becuase of it (and I'm talking rec here), but even in a tourny game play relies on high rates of fire to restrict movement, making games boring to watch. Even in scenario seeing A1's and Ego's rip out as fast as a Rotor can feed is excessive, is safe or even smart? Do you agree? As a community how do we encourage change from fields to corporations? Do we want change?

I agree

I think a ROF cap at rec fields and tournaments is the best thing that could happen to paintball. You cant control off the fields on outlaw etc but if the standard was set tourney and recball then it would filter atleast partially to the outlaw field. I remember talking to Bob McGuire about this issue back in july when I was down at PTI. He said player associations have been attempted in the past but ultimately failed. Im sure if I shoot him an email he would have some great insights into this topic.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:53 PM #44
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I think most fields and players should understand something: Open play day is not tournament practice day. Tone it down, play for fun. Let the new guys have a sporting chance. Use the refs discretion to assure it. Your "sponsorhip" depends on these people having fun and wanting to do this again. Play left handed if your right, practice snap shooting, take a different bunker than normal, play pump, don't wipe, maybe even call yourself out on bounces, play hopperball - whatever. All those things will improve your game while giving other players at least a sporting chance. I
thats how it should be done..
you dont get any better going into a game against walk on players when your on 15bps ramping and you shoot a hopper and 3 pods.. all youve done is scare the **** out of them..
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:44 AM #45
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The two major local fields I go to have a 10bps semi auto only open play rule. They split apart teams based on skill level. Also there are two choices for open play: woodsball or speedball(god I wish they kept the old 10 man hyperball fields they were always a blast). If one team is unbalanced both fields do a very good job of fixing up the inequalities.

At my favorite of the two fields the rental guns consist of either Automags for $10 (keep in mind these are VERY old mags that come with the dinky 6-8inch barrels that are chrono'd in at around 260) or a5's for $20. Now the general rec baller usually pics the cheaper of the two because honestly they don't know what they are doing and saving 10 bucks sounds like a good deal. The range on the Automags are terrible(thanks to the crappy tiny barrels and the 260ish chrono) not to mention with an inexperienced user buying the cheapest paint those things chop like crazy making things even worse accuracy wise(don't forget how rec ballers love putting paint they find on the ground in their guns, because hey it's free!).

The real problem I see that drives the divide between new players and their retention rate to the sport is this. Take a new player that doesn't understand the sport at all; give them a gun that shoots 1-2 bps tops(without chopping) with a terrible barrel that has no range or accuracy to speak of. And then pit them against even a person with a super low end electro(even capped at 10 semi auto) with a half decent barrel. That's one massive problem to over come. I think it puts the new player in a place where they feel like they HAVE to spend a ton of cash on a gun to even feel competitive. I think if the field switched permanently to the A5's(which come properly chrono'd with a decent barrel) things would work out for the new players 100% better, but that's just me. We generally don't have dicks who wipe a lot(which personally I've noticed decked out "scenario woodsballers" do just as much as the "agg turnament" players do) and we don't have people with bad attitudes. Everyone is friendly at my field and that's why I love it, I'm pretty happy I don't get the horror stories a lot of people here on pbn do that I read constantly.

But that's just the field I go to. Everyone has their opinion on what's wrong with our sport because they have a different perspective on the problem. Personally this push against the aggressive dickwads and people with bad attitudes isn't really going to help. Humanity has their ****heads anywhere you go. The real issues for us as a community to deal with is setting rules in place to check the bad behavior and simply having as many of us in the community act as good will ambassadors.

Be polite, helpful, and if anything else have a sense of sportsmanship. That's my motto at least.

(sorry for the rant guys 101 fever here and I've been doing nothing but reading pbn all day)
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Old 10-16-2009, 08:39 AM #46
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If you are worried about price, play pump. I used to spend ~$70 a day of play and 2 cases of paint for my EGO
lol...if you are worried about price, become a better shot. I have a Mini and couldn't fathom shooting 2 cases of paint in a day of walk on. Skip the spray and prey tactic and choose your shots.
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Old 10-16-2009, 08:48 AM #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShockVVave69 View Post
The two major local fields I go to have a 10bps semi auto only open play rule. They split apart teams based on skill level. Also there are two choices for open play: woodsball or speedball(god I wish they kept the old 10 man hyperball fields they were always a blast). If one team is unbalanced both fields do a very good job of fixing up the inequalities.

At my favorite of the two fields the rental guns consist of either Automags for $10 (keep in mind these are VERY old mags that come with the dinky 6-8inch barrels that are chrono'd in at around 260) or a5's for $20. Now the general rec baller usually pics the cheaper of the two because honestly they don't know what they are doing and saving 10 bucks sounds like a good deal. The range on the Automags are terrible(thanks to the crappy tiny barrels and the 260ish chrono) not to mention with an inexperienced user buying the cheapest paint those things chop like crazy making things even worse accuracy wise(don't forget how rec ballers love putting paint they find on the ground in their guns, because hey it's free!).

The real problem I see that drives the divide between new players and their retention rate to the sport is this. Take a new player that doesn't understand the sport at all; give them a gun that shoots 1-2 bps tops(without chopping) with a terrible barrel that has no range or accuracy to speak of. And then pit them against even a person with a super low end electro(even capped at 10 semi auto) with a half decent barrel. That's one massive problem to over come. I think it puts the new player in a place where they feel like they HAVE to spend a ton of cash on a gun to even feel competitive. I think if the field switched permanently to the A5's(which come properly chrono'd with a decent barrel) things would work out for the new players 100% better, but that's just me. We generally don't have dicks who wipe a lot(which personally I've noticed decked out "scenario woodsballers" do just as much as the "agg turnament" players do) and we don't have people with bad attitudes. Everyone is friendly at my field and that's why I love it, I'm pretty happy I don't get the horror stories a lot of people here on pbn do that I read constantly.

But that's just the field I go to. Everyone has their opinion on what's wrong with our sport because they have a different perspective on the problem. Personally this push against the aggressive dickwads and people with bad attitudes isn't really going to help. Humanity has their ****heads anywhere you go. The real issues for us as a community to deal with is setting rules in place to check the bad behavior and simply having as many of us in the community act as good will ambassadors.

Be polite, helpful, and if anything else have a sense of sportsmanship. That's my motto at least.

(sorry for the rant guys 101 fever here and I've been doing nothing but reading pbn all day)
I agree with you on that one, lending even a slightly better, upgraded or not marker to a new kid does wonders for them and saves them the rental cost.

I dont think a push toward those dickwads etc should be the intent. I think the push is for each of us indvidually to check ourselves at the door. The dickwads will naturally fall in line, or get bored with this sense of community. I myself need to work on just dealing with those type of people, they bug me but Im a work in progress. Always have been always will be
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:02 AM #48
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I also think alot of this falls on reffing staff too, I mean they are supposed to be the king of the fields and are really the first abasadors, when I reffed I let some toys out to kids if their rental or their gun went down, or let a big group us my SWAM in an attack and defend game, hell I went through 5 Spyder spring kits in a month once, as much as we as players have to be good people, quality refs have to be even better cause if your service sucks you're not going to go back to the place right? Unfortunately atleast at one of my fields for every 2 good refs (that are older) there is 1 schmuck that I have to bully to turn games in under a half an hour. There's alot that needs fixing in our game, as much as the industry has helped or hurt, I think we need to figure out a way to reach the players again and change some attitudes. True grass root stuff. I think I'll make a new section on my site for this.

You know what, that's a damn good idea I get afew hundred thousands image views a year why not. If there's anyone here that wants to write an OP ED article on what we're talking about write it up here and PM a link to it, I can't pay you for your conent (please sign it with your real name though) but I'll try and get you some images or maybe a background or something.

Please spell and grammar check, I'll drop it into word to make sure and proof it but the more you do the faster I can post. And spread the word, just leave the .50 stuff out as much as you can, like I said before .50 isn't the problem but it's not a solution, not in my eyes at least.
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:18 AM #49
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Quote:
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I also think alot of this falls on reffing staff too, I mean they are supposed to be the king of the fields and are really the first abasadors, when I reffed I let some toys out to kids if their rental or their gun went down, or let a big group us my SWAM in an attack and defend game, hell I went through 5 Spyder spring kits in a month once, as much as we as players have to be good people, quality refs have to be even better cause if your service sucks you're not going to go back to the place right? Unfortunately atleast at one of my fields for every 2 good refs (that are older) there is 1 schmuck that I have to bully to turn games in under a half an hour. There's alot that needs fixing in our game, as much as the industry has helped or hurt, I think we need to figure out a way to reach the players again and change some attitudes. True grass root stuff. I think I'll make a new section on my site for this.

You know what, that's a damn good idea I get afew hundred thousands image views a year why not. If there's anyone here that wants to write an OP ED article on what we're talking about write it up here and PM a link to it, I can't pay you for your conent (please sign it with your real name though) but I'll try and get you some images or maybe a background or something.

Please spell and grammar check, I'll drop it into word to make sure and proof it but the more you do the faster I can post. And spread the word, just leave the .50 stuff out as much as you can, like I said before .50 isn't the problem but it's not a solution, not in my eyes at least.
I 100% agree, post a link to your site and keep me informed. Im going to ping some people that I know in the industry and present this to the players I know and come across. lets get it started.
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:33 AM #50
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I agree with you on that one, lending even a slightly better, upgraded or not marker to a new kid does wonders for them and saves them the rental cost.

I dont think a push toward those dickwads etc should be the intent. I think the push is for each of us indvidually to check ourselves at the door. The dickwads will naturally fall in line, or get bored with this sense of community. I myself need to work on just dealing with those type of people, they bug me but Im a work in progress. Always have been always will be
That is true. The paintball culture bred itself to where it is now. Not by any of use thinking "I'm gonna be a dick and really overshoot the new players today" but through a lack of people making an attempt to make certain the newest players enjoyed it As it bred itself in, it can breed itself out. The good news about paintball is in part a high turnover. Those still playing after a few years must really like something about it and those that are problems are generally gone in a short time. Change, at an attitude level, could be relatively quick and far reaching.
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:50 AM #51
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the sport has been in decline for the past few years, I dont think anyone disputes that. maybe the answer is to look at field and operations that has been successful in the past two years and look to them to see what is working and what isnt.

with that I present small case study on a field that has had double digit growth in each of the past two years, Splat Tag in Hudson WI. this field has been operated for the last ten+ years and commands close to a 55% share of the great minneapolis/st. paul metro DMA. attendence of both private groups and open play has been higher year over year in each of the past four years and growth this year is estimated at 10%.

these are a few policies that the field has adopted in the past few years that have been at the heart of this growth. first there is no speedball, the air fields were dismantled and the equipment sold, there is an 'urban' course but its large and encompasses long range play along with a small smount of cqb so to speak. private groups are encouraged to play in the woods as opposed to the urban field at least for their first few games and they are NEVER integrated into the rest of open play unless they expressly ask for it. A fire rate cap has also been placed on all guns of 12 bps with a 280 fps limit for semis and 300 for pumps, this is a bit more aggresive then other fields and has been part of the reason for an increase in open play. Open play averages somewhere around 75 players on a weekend day and 200+ on end of the month mini scenario games, based on the DMA population averages this is higher then comparably sized fields in communites all around the country except southern california which enjoys a climate and density relative to land availability unlike any other area of the country. Paint prices are about on par with other large fields and an emphasis is placed on having good quality masks for rental players.

the results from this field are outperforming many across the coutry and I think it shows that the parts of the sport that will die out and maybe should die out are the small field that is run out of some guys garage that opened a field because he wanted to play for free and the little field that has ust speedball. these little fields are not professional and give paintball part of the negative image it has and speedball fields are so good at discouraging new players from ever playing paintball again they are the primary reason this sport is having trouble right now.....

the answer is to get rid of speedball and the small unprofessional fields. this game should be run at large professional facilities where the primary point of contact is at medium to longer ranges and where bunkering is a rarity as opposed to something that is designed to happen in every game. I understand the intent of speedball and its original purpose wasnt a bad thought, to boil an hours long game of sneaking, striking and feinting, crawling, and pushing down to three minutes of just the firefights with no tree branches, weeds, or other line of fire impediments from the true shot and making the fields even so no side has the advantage of the hill or the side with the fort on it..... but what is has become is for adrenaline fueled assaults on others in the name of sport.

I know a lot of people dont want to hear this but the sport of speedball needs to slowly fade away for the game of paintball to grow again. some may say that the woods is for milsimer's and nerds but I would encourage you to look at some of the teams that are regulars at fields like splat tag, they for the most part dont wear camoflauge and they dont shoot replica firearms, teams like MN Mayhem, Bunkerbusters, and Ace's high are not teams that are together just for the sake of playing in tournaments, they are a group of friends that like to get together and play paintball together for fun.... like the game is supposed to be.....

sorry for the rant......

Last edited by cutstep : 10-16-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 10-16-2009, 03:34 PM #52
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I know a lot of people dont want to hear this but the sport of speedball needs to slowly fade away for the game of paintball to grow again.
No... Most of what you said is so incredibly wrong. Speedball and woodsball are two sides of the same coin. Speedball is a faster paced style of play where you do need top of the line gear to play(gun/hopper/compressed air tank). Where speedball is a more relaxed family style of play where gear isn't as important. I won't even get into how so many large companies that fuel and supply this sport rely on speedball players to buy their new guns and gear to keep afloat. It's just the way it is. Why do you think paint is so cheap right now? Simply because they sell so much in bulk that they can cut profit to make it back in sales(ie numbers).

Just because you like woodsball more than speedball doesn't mean you have to get rid of what you personally don't prefer. Speedball isn't the problem at all. I personally see just as many people wipe who are geared out in full bdu's with a tippmann a5 and a flatline as I do speedball players decked out in all the best and latest gear. Both styles of players hurt as all equally.

Granted having an open game first time rec baller step onto a field with a crappy rental step onto a speedball field probably won't turn out too well for them. But they made the choice personally to pick that type of game rather than going out with the woodsball group. Every field I have EVER been to has had two styles of open play, woodsball and speedball. You have the choice yourself of what you want to do. If you stuck to the speedball field all day and got the crap kicked out of you because of having lesser gear and hated the sport for it. That's kind of your problem alone, if and only if, there were open woodsball games for you to join instead.

A positive direction for this sport relies on two things. Firstly the fields themselves are responsible. Having good refs, rules, and most importantly choices are key. If a field can have enough quality refs to man a field and keep the wipers honest, have the ability to separate teams so that they are even, enforce rules such as a semi auto(only) with a bps limit, and most importantly offer choices like woodsball and speedball. Then that field is doing it's job properly. Second, it is up to the experienced players to be ambassadors of our sport if we plan on playing with the open gamers. Simply being friendly, offering advice, and giving encouragement go a long way.

Making absolutes and taking extreme points of view like speedball is killing the sport does nothing but hurt the sport. It also creates a farther divide between woodsballers and speedballers which there doesn't need to be. We are all playing the same sport, and we are all facing the same problems. You aren't going to solve anything by alienating an entire group that loves the same thing you do. We just have different tastes on how we like to play. Some of us like both
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:18 PM #53
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I play both about the same amount of woods and speedball and like both about same .... we all know that the problem is not in the woods....
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:39 PM #54
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I see a lot of overshooting and cheating in the woods. Perhaps the mentality did not start there but there is little doubt it is there now.
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:06 PM #55
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I see a lot of overshooting and cheating in the woods. Perhaps the mentality did not start there but there is little doubt it is there now.
I agree 100%. I don't think pointing fingers is really a solution. Again it's really a fields responsibility to create and enforce rules to allow for better game play. The majority of the complaints I see coming forth are problems I simply don't have at my field of choice. Sure we have them here and there, but for the most part it's rare. My field has been open for over 19 years, they are doing something right rules wise to keep the customers coming back.

If someones ramping, overshooting, bunkering(my field has a barrel tap policy that's strictly enforced for open play, the only time it gets voided is on the speedball field when EVERYONE agrees), or just playing like a dick wrist bands get pulled and people get asked to leave.

The only thing that I can ever complain about if I choose to do open play woodsball at my field is when you get rec ballers who sit behind the first piece of cover and don't move or help our team effort out at all, no matter how nicely you ask them to move up. But you get that anywhere you go.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:24 PM #56
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these little fields are not professional and give paintball part of the negative image it has and speedball fields are so good at discouraging new players from ever playing paintball again they are the primary reason this sport is having trouble right now.....

I think quite honestly the quoted poster above has hit the nail on the exact head. I wish all field owners would read this quote... turnover is what it is... the people who are going to come back will come back regardless... but they may not come back to your field.

I play every weekend. I take a new person with me to the field whenever I can and the consistent things I have noticed are as the above poster said... it is really down tot he field size.

Taking them to the big commercial jerk field, their comments are generally positive... we liked those fields... the confidence that being out of range in the first bit gives them and then their ability to sort of chart their course instead of rushing into a small bunker and then being stuck/pinned there the entire game by a fusillade of paintballs... that is what it is all about.

New players should be playing on big fields, with well defined cover and... just big professional fields. The small fun fields, that our field has let us put together (think outlaw field) and play on are great for us advanced players, but every new player that ever plays them hates them.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:40 PM #57
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Just because you like woodsball more than speedball doesn't mean you have to get rid of what you personally don't prefer.
I don't think you completely got the message of his post. Speedball is inherently a much more aggressive and competitive game. Its designed to be. This is not a good environment for convincing first time players to return.

No don't get me wrong, I love speedball, but I would be very reluctant to bring a friend who had never played before to a speedball only field, especially one with high bps caps.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:30 PM #58
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:17 PM #59
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I totally didn't see that.
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:33 AM #60
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One possible solution as .50 cal is dead. Is to make gun restrictions on fields. aka 98customs's only or just buy a crap ton of gog electros. they are 150 each but rentem out 4 times ans they pay for themselves. since they use hpa the field would save on co2. put a shake and shoot hopper on em. this way the new players that cant ramp wont be punished by missed loads that the 20bps walkers can get. couple this with spoolball and not providing airball leads to fields for novice and intermediate players. Get rid of field fees and make it rental/fieldpaint only. players dont worry about theft as they dont bring gear. everyone can play at a fair level.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:34 PM #61
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I don't get where the feeling that airball has to be completely eliminated from fields in order for it to grow is coming from. Simply because there is airball at a field doesn't mean that new players have to play on it. Plus, when I reffed at our local field new players were always pretty excited to play on the airball field (with people of the same experience, of course) and a decent sized majority preferred it to playing in the woods.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:11 PM #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost93 View Post
I don't get where the feeling that airball has to be completely eliminated from fields in order for it to grow is coming from.
Removed from all existence? No. But I do feel that de-emphasizing it would be of considerable benefit. If it was "just another field" there would be no problem. It's the airball Only players that tend to be the problem, the One Field Wonders (OFW) if you will. It thankfully seems to be a shrinking demographic, but too many OFW's at a field has a tendency to drag a field down. You get a slow day, say 8 players who want to play on a variety of fields and 4 or will ONLY play on the airball field. 4 on 4 on a really big woods isn't very fun, those fields get more enjoyable with more and more people. So they ask the 4 OFW's if they want to join in, and of course they stick their noses up and say they don't play "those" kind of games on "that" type of field, as if there was something wrong about that type of play and those that enjoy it are somehow in the wrong. Now of the 8 players a few might actually start to believe the OFW's and join them (now they have 3 on 3 on the airball fields which makes for a good practice, so nothing seems wrong to them), a few will feel rightfully insulted and not come back, and the rest, well now there are less people to play with next time and no point in playing at such an unpopular field so they stop coming back.
When it reaches the point where the majority of players will only play on one field it effectively kills the play on ALL other types of field. For a player who enjoys variety there's nothing worse than showing up to a full parking lot expecting a good day of play, and ending up playing the same format on the same field over and over again while some great fields sit empty. Top it off with some douchebags calling the player a "newb" for even suggesting that it might be fun to play on a different field and you have the recipe for field failure.

Quote:
Simply because there is airball at a field doesn't mean that new players have to play on it.
Yet ironically simply having it there means that some players will ONLY play on it, ruining the vibe. When it's not there everyone plays on every field equally. There's no self-imposed segregation. Sure you might not like this games field the best, but next game will be on a different field you might enjoy more. Everyone there knows what type of play to expect, knows that everyone there is there just to have a good time (hint: no one is claiming they are there to "practice"), no one feels like a second class citizen.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:26 PM #63
Irish916
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutstep View Post
the answer is to get rid of the small unprofessional fields.
I'm not gonna nitpick your post but this is the important part.

I'm a seasoned tourney player and I've worked as a ref for a few fields so I can see the big picture.

Unprofessional fields make new players not come back. It's possible to make a field that can be successful and cater to beginners having a good time and tourney players having a quality practice.

One field I reffed at had 3 fields, two airball field and a spool type wooden field. We'd call a game on field 1, 2, or 3 and people would play if they wanted. This wasn't an effective system, kids *****ed when not with their friends, tourney players had a lol practice (no team out of this field was ever good tbh) and rec ballers had a decent time. They still had to play against better players with fast guns and other things but typically had a good time.

Another field I reffed at had 4 fields, 3 airball and a huge rec field with woods, fort, etc. One airball field was kept nice and specifically for tournament team practice, the other 2 airball fields were for pick up games with mixed lines and people of all skill levels, but all the great players played with their team so it kinda balanced itself. The recball field was mostly for rec ballers of beginner skill level, many times experienced beginners with nice gear and fast guns would play on here but the field was so big fast guns couldn't be a huge threat when they reach half the field before losing velocity and giving bounces.
The tourney players reffed themselves, 2-3 refs reffed pick up games, and 8-10 refs reffed recballers. Players walked up the the field from the staging area, and decide their own teams. Refs were there to enforce mask/barrel bag safety and call games.

IMO this was best as rec ballers would walk past the tourney player field, see the skill level not want to play on that field (and they're too busy running xball matches anyway so you don't get play time on that field w/o a team) and are comfortable playing on the rec field but can still spectate a serious practice giving them some insight on tourney play. For the record I noticed the recballers here were better players than other places probably from watching a strong team play and seeing how much fun tourney play can be before they try it.

I noticed in addition to every tourney player each week there was a large pool of younger 12-13 year old players who started on the rec field, bought more gear, played on the airball fields more frequently and tended to play 2-3 times a month.

I'd say the best way to keep players coming back is to separate players in a way where the tourney players are expected to show up every week, practice hard and win events when they aren't practicing. Recball players don't want to get involved in this so they'll walk to an empty field where they can play with friends and other players without gear or fast guns.
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