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Old 10-14-2009, 06:19 PM #22
Lohman446
 
 
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Originally Posted by bigman1416 View Post
Even then newbies won't be new forever, if they do stick around, what's next for them? They've had it easy while they were getting aclimated to paintball, do we just say "Ok, you know the ropes, ROF is 12 with 3 shot, try to keep up?" and move them from the rental teams to main stream or do we continue to bracket and create divisions? Is high rate fire with a case of paint behind us still the right future for paintball?
Why does the "rookie" division (yeh, right thats a joke) in the local tournament scene play with the exact same equipment and rules (basically) that the pros use? Why is it that I can walk into any local scene that they don't know me at and play in the rookie division for cash prizes despite literal years of playing in PSP?

Get the money out first of all. These local tournaments that only serve to move money from the losers to the winners (who tend to be the same couple teams every time) would be more fun if they cost less (one of the great benefits of 50 right, how about lower entrance fees instead). Perhaps with no money on the line cheating would be lessened? Maybe ramping should be reserved for the very top divisions? Maybe more tournaments should utilize the APPA? (was that the ID system) when playing for prizes.

I don't think high rate of fire paintball is the type I like to play. That being said, to some degree, its going to be there. Using myself as an example. I like laid back, everyone has fun, we grab a couple pizzas, call ourselves out, and just play paintball. I also think that type could be far better for new players. In order to find it, I have to use connections from here, MCB, and other friends to find it. These are not connections the average new player has. Since I believe the companies that support this have not overextended themselves I do not need new players in droves. The people that need them (field owners, etc) need to find a way to help introduce the new player without simply throwing them in front of a wall of paint and saying this is paintball.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:38 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
Why does the "rookie" division (yeh, right thats a joke) in the local tournament scene play with the exact same equipment and rules (basically) that the pros use? Why is it that I can walk into any local scene that they don't know me at and play in the rookie division for cash prizes despite literal years of playing in PSP?

Get the money out first of all. These local tournaments that only serve to move money from the losers to the winners (who tend to be the same couple teams every time) would be more fun if they cost less (one of the great benefits of 50 right, how about lower entrance fees instead). Perhaps with no money on the line cheating would be lessened? Maybe ramping should be reserved for the very top divisions? Maybe more tournaments should utilize the APPA? (was that the ID system) when playing for prizes.

I don't think high rate of fire paintball is the type I like to play. That being said, to some degree, its going to be there. Using myself as an example. I like laid back, everyone has fun, we grab a couple pizzas, call ourselves out, and just play paintball. I also think that type could be far better for new players. In order to find it, I have to use connections from here, MCB, and other friends to find it. These are not connections the average new player has. Since I believe the companies that support this have not overextended themselves I do not need new players in droves. The people that need them (field owners, etc) need to find a way to help introduce the new player without simply throwing them in front of a wall of paint and saying this is paintball.
Thats a great point. The money/fame/ etc is the partial root of this evil.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:47 PM #24
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As already stated the people need to change not the gear. It's peoples inability to empathize with new players. The reason we have this (in my opinion) sprout from two reasons. one: paintball has been around for a pretty long time. Those who can still remember when it was people in the woods playing with pump have either moved on or gotten far better. Now most of these people (based on personal experience) are helpful and will give a new player a tip or something that will help them. Then there are the rare few who mow down new players. these people are hard to come by but still show up here and there. The second reason: "speed ball". The whole fast paced kill or be killed mentality. This has been the reason why so many players have left the game. They cant keep up with the 15bps guys constantly running amok on the speed ball fields. This is also due to some fields only having speed ball courses. Now i'm probably going to get alot of flak from the tourney community but it is true. Maybe fields should have city and/or woods fields. This would let some players have a well balanced field to return to. Not the place where they got mowed down by the guy with the 900$ gun. But the place where they crawled through the underbrush and ambushed the "good" players.
Hell that's what drew me into the sport. The first field i played at (still my "home field") has two woods ball fields a city field and a speed ball field.

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Old 10-14-2009, 06:53 PM #25
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This isnt a blame game of tourneyball this or Woodsball this. Fact is the fast shooting markers are everywhere. I myself own a BT-4 Delta with an Ape board. I easily with the press of a button a few times switch it up to 20+ bps. I rarely do that and if I do its because I'm preparing for that to be the same on the other side of my barrel. Thats only with my paintball buddies, I dont take that same shooting style to the field and do that with the walkons or even other experienced players. Im into the milsim and small scenario stuff. Im in to the typical outlaw woodsball game. Im also in on the recball game too.

I realize that speedball is where it is prevalent but it isnt just there, but it shouldnt be about pointing fingers anymore. Really that has been going on for a few years now and obviously it hasnt helped anything
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:58 PM #26
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it's a learning curve OP ever heard of it? It is like that in a lot of sports. Bet it snowboarding or the like.

Instead of falling on your *** all day like in snowboarding, when you are new to paintball you get shot by other people.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:01 PM #27
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You got me on that. But maybe the problem is right in front of us. Maybe we carry rivalries right out off the field and right out to the pregame area. Then there is this unknown hatred towards "newbs". Maybe people think that they are slowing them down. But regardless it's a problem every-where you go.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:26 PM #28
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it's a learning curve OP ever heard of it? It is like that in a lot of sports. Bet it snowboarding or the like.

Instead of falling on your *** all day like in snowboarding, when you are new to paintball you get shot by other people.
I don't know, when I learned to ski I didn't have other skiers competing against me. When I started martial arts I was not thrust into full contact sparring with the black belts. When I started shooting the most experienced shooters took the time to teach me the "tricks" they didn't try to prove they could get 25 to my single digit scores. When I started baseball I did not have some pitcher throwing 80MPH fast balls past me and then laughing about it. What's worse, is even your experience is only part of it, you then use superior equipment against the new player So I guess that concept is out.... but you do prove the point I was originally making rather well.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:41 PM #29
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you guys are makin some good points

I for one am totally opposed to this .50 cal ****.
68 caliber is OUR caliber. It is not used for anything else.

But here is why the introduction of .50 is wack. New players coming into the game, not knowing a thing about paintball, will be overwhelmed with decisions as it is. These new .50 products clutter the market with garbage, and they make any decision regarding getting into paintball for new players way more difficult.
Just think of someone (I know it's hard) who doesn't know ONE thing about paintball. Now imagine them sitting at the counter trying to buy gear while the guy behind the desk tells him "What caliber do you want? We have .43, .50, .55, .68....."
The newb is gonna be like wtf?!?!?!!!!
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:51 PM #30
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i was just thinking about this. what if the tounies quit giving points for an elimination? the only way to win is to hang the flag the faster you hang it the more points you get. this makes shooting people a secondary objective thus making a more movement oriented faster paced game thats cheaper to play and it don't matter if someone shoots your or you shoot someone thats only icing on the cake so to speak. this reduces cheating because players would not be as focused on eliminations. just a thought.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:02 PM #31
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you guys are makin some good points

I for one am totally opposed to this .50 cal ****.
68 caliber is OUR caliber. It is not used for anything else.

But here is why the introduction of .50 is wack. New players coming into the game, not knowing a thing about paintball, will be overwhelmed with decisions as it is. These new .50 products clutter the market with garbage, and they make any decision regarding getting into paintball for new players way more difficult.
Just think of someone (I know it's hard) who doesn't know ONE thing about paintball. Now imagine them sitting at the counter trying to buy gear while the guy behind the desk tells him "What caliber do you want? We have .43, .50, .55, .68....."
The newb is gonna be like wtf?!?!?!!!!
its the guy behind the counter responsibility to do what any salesman should do. Find out what the person is looking to play. I fill in up at the local proshop when the owner needs someone to cover him for a little bit. so if Im behind the counter it would be my responsibility to narrow the potential customers options by just asking questions. If he has friends that have paintball guns that are .68 then I would steer him towards a beginner level .68 paintball gun. If he dosnt know anyone in paintball then I would spend the as much time as I could talking to them pinging for info.

As much as I would want to sell the guy something I may even suggest the guy to try and borrow someones marker or to do his own exploration as to what he would be looking for. If you set the guy up to buy something and give him all the right information he will come back when he is ready to buy something. Its part of having that customer relationship. I go up to the store and hang out just to talk to the different players who walk in looking either at airsoft, paintball etc. The relationships that are built from just doing those small things do wanders in the paintball community.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:34 AM #32
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post

A minute into the game he can't see... but he can hear
"Watch the snake, newb, watch the snake"
His only thought is, whats the snake before he is hit by, if he's lucky, 6 or so paintballs. If he's lucky its from across the field. This of course is followed by the yelling
"Get him out ref, he's wiping, get him out, get him out, get him out"
Not totally sure how to react when hit it takes time, and he will hear this and see this several times over the day.

You can guess what he will hear, and overhear in the staging area. He will begin to understand what wiping is, but he won't understand it until he gets a good shot in on a player, is almost certain it broke, and then is shot up by that player a few seconds later.
i think the problem is that you play with a bunch of *******s. sorry for wherever you are at
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:12 AM #33
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include new players. make them feel welcome. basically excersize empathy. hope thats not too difficult. I got my butt mowed down when I started playing too. But the people were very nice.... that changed somewhere along the way
It changed when the Ion came out. The release of the Ion added an influx of immature, "tween" and teen players. The Ion came out, the average age of players dropped, and their immaturity and disrespect towards one another carried over into the sport they played, the same way it carries over into everything else the majority of "tweens" and teens do.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:43 AM #34
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Recball is the cash cow of paintball. I have played a few seasons of PSP, a bunch of CFOA, etc., but all the xball and 7-man players in the world do not and will not perpetuate the paintball industry. That being said, it seems that some of you are die-hard recballers, and that's wonderful; but, you are ignoring a demographic that is very important to advancing paintball: the hungry, addicted, wide-eyed tournament player that all the kids on the block with a spyder want to be like. There are punks out there that are not mature and self-assured enough to just play without trying to show off how fast their gun shoots, or how many kids with rentals that they can bunker in a day; but this is not a case against tournament players, just some less socially developed adolescents that unfortunately are the easiest to spot on any given sunday. I'm military now, and I do a lot of community work with kids, I always get asked to go when we play paintball because I've got all the coolest stuff and the kids love it. The problem is not tournament paintball, it's people with bad attitudes. I think the photographer is the only one really digging in this discussion, my point may not be all that important, but I think that we should focus on more intuitive ways to draw people in, and simply lead by example with etiquette. You can always step in and be the hero at a rec field when you take time with a kid and show him that there are people who play paintball that don't need to smash locals at a rec field; but do not stratify the paintball community further by pitting the "golden-days" pump players against the kids that are buying the latest, most fashionable products, we are all keeping this thing afloat in some way. Be positive.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:58 AM #35
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To correct a few misconceptions in this thread:

PSP 10.5bps is less than most players can manage on semi. Good on the PSP for doing this.

And to nerve: in the PSP, there are no points for eliminations. So basically one can argue that PSP is more newb friendly.

So there are leagues out there that are actually starting to think about how to make the sport better for new folks. Combine this with cheaper paint (if .50 cal works) and it's probably all good. We hope.

Advice for good ballers who find themselves playing newbs a lot:

When playing newbs, don't bunker them. Just realise that you could bunker them and be happy with that. Continue playing, save the bunkering for proper practices and drills.

Another good idea is to get a pump - it's cheaper to play with, stops you overshooting, evens the playing field when playing newbs AND is really good for your tourney skills. It's like training for a marathon by running with weights - when you take off the weights you'll be awesome. If I ever run a field I'll have a few pumps lying around that speedballers can play with for free if they swap it for their electro. Of course they can have their electro back when they bring the pump back - I'd keep the electros somewhere nice and secure in the meantime.

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Old 10-15-2009, 08:01 AM #36
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I have only been playing for 3 years or so. I am now the "silver back" at our field. All the new kids look to me for help. They all want me on their team. To be honest it gets a little old after a while. BUT I want these kids to come back and keep coming back. If running semi and holding their hand is what it takes, fine. As they gain experience they will get better and then we can pick up the pace and destory each other like morons, but together.

On a side note: I have noticed that it is easier to help a new player along during a woodsball game. By nature the game is slower and there is more time to work with the new player.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:40 AM #37
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I dont think being the "silverback" at a field or a group/network gets boring at all. Sure there are days where I would rather play then sit around fixing peoples markers, but if that what it takes to foster a positive playing experience then so be it.

I'm not overlooking tourneyball at all. The reality is the kids are looking up to tourneyball. Actually all of us are. Tourneyball in their eyes is where the "pros" are and where the most exciting paintball and/or fame is to be attained. In my eyes, as a recball/woodsball player I look up tourneyball to set the example of what this sport is really about. I think tourneyball has let that aspiring kid down to some extent, and it has let me the recball/woodsball player down.

Inadvertently a negative persona has been shrouded over the name of paintball, mostly coming from the Tourneyball simple because it garners the media attention. This dosnt mean that all negative or bad publicity only comes from Tourneyball but a good bit of it does. Perceived negativity is just as bad if not worst as actual negativity.

When that kid gets to the point where he can begin to compete at that level reality smacks him the face 14 splats in a matter of 2 secs. Tourney ball garners the majority of the media coverage so most of the perceptions about paintball wether they are true or not come from what players, parents, media, and govt see come from the Tourney side of paintball.

I do find it easier to help out a inexperienced player in woods then on the rec field but at the same time, I can sit out a game and just coach the kid from the sideline. The difference is Im paying to be at a field with rec ball to coach a kid and not at a game I organize. Heck those of you who want to just show and help kids could probably get in free and not play just help out. Volunteer at your local field, your knocking out two birds with one stone. Your helping out the local field with stuff they woulld be normally paying someone to do and your helping other players advance in their paintball game. That seems to be more rewarding then playing. But maybe thats just because I have played for 10+ years. I dont think this means I have had my fill but every great Paintball company was pretty much started by a player who decided to do something for the paintball community.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:27 AM #38
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you know, around here most of the problem doesn't come from the actual tournament players. It comes from the kids TRYING to be the tournament players.
the ones that have a little experience and think they are gods gift to paintball because of it.

I see the dialog going on in a few of the posts in here and it gives me hope.
Here is my quest to all of you who see the problems in paintball.
name 5 things that YOU yourself can do to make your local field a better place for the people coming up in the game. maybe we can make a positive change for paintball
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:58 AM #39
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Ok so lets step back and actually look at the situation we're discribing. We know we need 3 real types of paintball, Fun Rec, Recreational (Scenario/Woodsball) and Competitive (Tourny). Player attitudes have hurt the sport, the self entitlement tween coulture that came about from cheap fast guns. Basically an influx of young players with not enough supervision. Rec play is the key to every thing, from rec play players can look to either woodsball style or tourny style, there needs to be direction past the lower level. Play needs to be sporting but fair, safe and fun. There's too much paint in the air, period, dot, point.

What steps as a community can we take to actually push change? Granted alot of this is regional, demographics are different based on what's popular where, some regions may not have these issues, others maybe collapsing because of it. Alot of field owners, atleast in my area don't cap rates of fire, they think cause you bought equipment that could draw in the sky you should shoot as fast as you want, for me as a player, ref and photographer, that's an issue. There are reasons other sports cap speeds, mandate seemingly excessive protocals, for the betterment of the sports. Back in 03(?) the ASTM and industry leaders agreed to a 12 bps cap on all markers that could fire faster, it lasted 2 weeks, do we as a community want a ROF cap for all levels of play locked into markers from factory release? I say yes with the option for tounry players to adjust it for their event, I love shooting fast, but on the field is creates issues, even seasoned players that get 3-5 more shots cause the paint's already in the air get angry becuase of it (and I'm talking rec here), but even in a tourny game play relies on high rates of fire to restrict movement, making games boring to watch. Even in scenario seeing A1's and Ego's rip out as fast as a Rotor can feed is excessive, is safe or even smart? Do you agree? As a community how do we encourage change from fields to corporations? Do we want change?
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:00 AM #40
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i think the problem is that you play with a bunch of *******s.
Best 50 cal post ever...ever! ahahahahaha
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:47 PM #41
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Well after all this I've decided to get a pump. That's what I'll be doing. Heck I was advocating it in my last post even though I don't have one.

That way I can't accidentally rip up newbs even if I try
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:55 PM #42
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this isnt for the new players.. this is for the people that shoot 50-100 cases a year. If i can save half of what im spending now i dont really care about that new guy im shooting out off break every point. if he wants to play he will learn like we all did.
If you are worried about price, play pump. I used to spend ~$70 a day of play and 2 cases of paint for my EGO, but I played pump last weekend, and I only spent $30. I paid field fees and bought a bag of 500 paintballs. That was the most fun I've ever had playing paintball.

My problem with .50 cal is the physics behind it. If you look at the stickied thread, you can clearly see the performance difference between them. I don't think that it will help the sport at all. It honestly seems like a marketing ploy by someone to make a quick buck. The main issue for me is the fact that they will not break as easy as a .68. That is just the physics behind it. If it works out, great we have a new product to help generate income for the companies involved, but if not, it was just a giant waste of time.

The only real way to help the sport is to treat the new players better. If they don't come back, it is hopeless.
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