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Old 10-14-2009, 03:09 PM #22
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Oh man. this has got my mind going nuts.. If you don't mind Yoda, I might want to try and replicate this beast a bit.
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:03 PM #23
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Originally Posted by Thorpydo View Post
Very cool. I also like how you've modified an existing gun instead of build from scratch. I've done the same thing with the plunger design in a DM.

Honestly though, this design reminds me more of the legion shocker than it does the plunger. You've got a spool riding in a static bore, not the bolt's bore - main difference from the legion I see is the spool moves forward to open the valve, instead of rearward, correct?
Definitely closer to the Legion Shocker, I can just see how someone would draw out some similarities. But nope, the spool moves rearwards to open like in the Legion Shocker, but the biasing on the spool is reversed. The Legion applied a constant air supply to the rear of the spool, and used a normally closed valve to move the spool rearwards (with a sail in the middle of the spool, and against the constant air source) which isolated the dump chamber and opened the valve. Mine has the constant air supply going into the side of the valve with the bias being rearwards (forwards in the Legion due to where the air comes in) and a normally open valve rebalancing the valve forwards and closed (from the rear of the spool). When the valve vents, the bias pressure from the dump chamber pushes the spool rearwards isolating the chamber and opening the valve.

I don't plan on patenting it. If I was, I would have done so before sharing it openly on the internet. I've sat on this for quite a while before deciding to release it, but it's out there for general use now.

It's a very efficient design, very simple and inexpensive to make, but suffers from the same "flaw" as the Legion Shocker in that it isn't super fast. The Legion never saw the light of day, and might never. Granted, there are companies with an interest in pursuing the niche market of scenario and recball players that would love this gun primarily for its efficiency. But I wasn't about to pay for a patent or provisional on this then shop it out given its limited marketability, a provisional might run out by the time I found an interested party and how would I feel out an interested party without giving away enough information that they could just backdoor me at the patent office if I shopped it first? It got to the point that I'd rather take pride seeing something I created in the hands of players appreciating it than trying to make money on it from a patent. I can still do so with retrofit kits if I wanted to, or a run of the gun that isn't a retrofit. So I decided to release it openly, anyone is free to take a stab at it now, whether it be a company, an airsmith, or a guy with a lathe and the desire.



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Originally Posted by FrmrSpecialist View Post
Oh man. this has got my mind going nuts.. If you don't mind Yoda, I might want to try and replicate this beast a bit.
Have fun.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:15 PM #24
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Doh! . . . somehow I missed your animation on the first page. Nice.

Yeah; I was never impressed with how the legion shocker's plunger operated. You've got a much cleaner solution here.

So what's the size of your volume chamber? And what operating pressure do you need to reach 290's?

You mentioned a thread to a similar open source project on MCB. Do you have a link handy?
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:43 PM #25
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http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/c...tball-gun.html

I said in there that they could have the design as a starting point for the project, but I haven't heard much back yet since I sent Carter the CAD file to ponder.

Not sure on actual chamber volume as my internal dimensions on the Ion are somewhat loose, but it is around 1.25 cubic inches. I need to get a more accurate gauge, but the Ion gauge I've been using reads about 100PSI to get 300FPS. I should snag one of the nice 3" gauges from work one of these days when I know I'll have a chance to shoot it.

The Legion and Novas plunger system always struck me as odd as well. Liked the isolation and valve end a lot, just not the actuation.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:55 PM #26
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looks great!

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Old 10-15-2009, 10:29 PM #27
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Here's a funny idea...

If it is working at 100psi, it might work to speed up the bolt cycle by using a second solenoid at 150psi to hold the bolt open, then close the bolt by shutting off the 150psi input and equalize the front and back of the bolt by venting to the dump chamber, switching the bias. Might be even more efficient because you can seal the dump chamber earlier because the bolt cycle would now be independent of the spool valve, while not using any more gas. You could recycle the spool-valve actuation gas similarly. (copyleft)
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Mecha Godzilla: the bolt don't move because it's a spool-valve prototype thingy.

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Old 10-16-2009, 05:50 AM #28
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That's part of the hope of devolumizing the chamber and increasing the pressure. I definitely won't be adding a second solenoid to it though, I'd rather sacrifice the slight increase in speed for the reliability and simplicity of a single solenoid. It would almost definitely be less efficient that way, as that 150psi gas would have to be vented somewhere. Someone else is free to though.
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:21 PM #29
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well couldn't it vent exhaust into the (lower pressure) main dump chamber? It wouldn't vent completely, but it would equalize, and because the surface area of the rear face is greater than the front face on the bolt sail, it would close. It's counter intuitive because normally the solenoids work on lower pressures than the dump chamber.

I hear what you're saying about staying with one solenoid though, cheaper, simpler and all that. You could use the same trick on that solenoid too, so you don't vent any gas to atmosphere. ( I don't know if you can put a manifold on the exhaust port, you might need to seal the solenoid entirely inside the dump chamber)
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:26 PM #30
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Or I could just put an LPR in to feed the front of the bolt for the return air, and use just a high enough pressure for proper cycling. It would close faster, but open slower.

Right now, the only gas vented to atmosphere is the gas behind the valve piston, and that is an incredibly small amount of air. The way it's balanced, I could probably use an LPR to feed that and the air in front of the bolt and get a slight increase in efficiency, but I doubt enough to make the extra complexity worth it.
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:35 PM #31
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ok here is a weird question for you i assume that your stuff slides pretty easy. what oring grove depth do you use? just curious
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:16 AM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpydo View Post
Very cool. I also like how you've modified an existing gun instead of build from scratch. I've done the same thing with the plunger design in a DM.

Honestly though, this design reminds me more of the legion shocker than it does the plunger. You've got a spool riding in a static bore, not the bolt's bore - main difference from the legion I see is the spool moves forward to open the valve, instead of rearward, correct?
exactly was came to my mind.
But seriously dude, kudos to you.

I think it would be sweet if like a conversion kit would be available.
Course, the kit would probably end up being pretty expensive...like a new firing can, board, banjo, bolt etc. Very likely to be over $100.

But still, kudos
I'd like to see some efficiency numbers
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:27 AM #33
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ok here is a weird question for you i assume that your stuff slides pretty easy. what oring grove depth do you use? just curious
For the most part, straight from the Parker Hannafin o-ring design handbook, but the clearance between the pieces is slightly larger than is in there. They are typically around .057" deep, with .006-.010" clearance from piece to piece.

I'd like to release a kit, but I need to do some research on what kind of market I'd be looking at, and what kind of price I'd be able to sell them for fairly. It can definitely be done without a new can, I've got several donut designs that would eliminate threading it like I did. What it does need, however, is people being willing to cut off the back of their body, using an aftermarket one with no back on it, and possibly a spacer between the frame and body so people don't need to cut holes for hoses into the body, and to make room for another fitting. Stock board can be used for those willing to run without eyes. All in all, to be affordable, probably a pretty limited market for a retrofit kit.

Efficiency from rudimentary testing is in the original post: ~2,300 shots from a 20 ounce tank, better testing with a chronograph, hopefully HPA, and some tweaks tested will happen soon.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:03 AM #34
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So, just wondering, what did this cost? anything less than a DYE NT? Cuz last i checked they didn't get anything close to that efficient.
Way way cool though!
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:44 AM #35
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b(^_^)d to you
this is badass use of smart parts junk
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:35 AM #36
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Finally got a video of the actual prototype shooting posted, sorry for the delay. I actually shot the video about a week after I promised it, then let a friend from work borrow my camera so his girlfriend could use it for a class project, then just kept putting it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiLWp7bwhIE


I've also had several requests, this is not for sale, and I am not going to be making them for anybody until the design is finalized, if ever.

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Old 12-12-2009, 09:02 PM #37
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During dry firing it sounded like it had some shoot down.. also it sounded like there were a couple of misfires later on.. not sure what happened..

but it's cool when you see someones ideas come together into a working prototype..

is there any physical bps limitation that you foresee?
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:08 PM #38
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I can't shoot semi fast enough left handed for it to have shootdown, but it will have some after about 13BPS. It will cycle fine up to at least 17CPS, but there is quite a bit of shootdown at that speed. There aren't any eyes on the system right now, I don't remember or can notice any misfires but there may have been. That's probably just my cameras audio sucking, it doesn't seem to deal well at all with rapid fluctuations in sound.

A few things I'd like to try in other versions to help with cycling speed such as varying how the bolt is cycled and devolumizing the dump chamber and jacking up the pressure.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:18 PM #39
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what about using a different frame and board.. how is the noid mounted...

id love to see more of this.. its so cool
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:23 PM #40
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what about using a different frame and board.. how is the noid mounted...

id love to see more of this.. its so cool
Right now, it's just the stock board and noid from an Ion, so it is mounted just like that. I have another frame board and noid, and was in the process of making a rail system to mount them all together for the project. Then I had the plastic main drive gear on my mill explode during another project and I haven't fixed the mill yet as I'm replacing it with a belt drive kit and not another plastic drive gear. Just waiting until after spending season is over to fix it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:32 PM #41
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very cool, does it shoot well?
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:25 PM #42
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i have a headache from the pure awesome in this thread (mainly from yoda)
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