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Old 10-09-2009, 04:40 PM #43
gspin2k1
 
 
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Originally Posted by transluc3nt View Post
.50 cal is not going to make it much cheaper to play in my opinion. First you will have to buy a new marker or an adapter kit for your marker and loader. Paintball Fields are still going to have to cover all the overhead to run a field, and a lot of fields make their money off paint sales. Just cause the paint maybe smaller doesn't mean its going to be a ton cheaper.
Less materials, cheaper paint. Also remember paintball fields buy their paint buy the truck load. Say each truck costs like $300 to deliver. The paintball store owner buys cases of paint for $35, sells them at $45 makes $10 per case of paintballs. Imaigne he can get i dunno 200 cases in a truck load. $2000 profit - delivery cost...$1700 profit.

Now imagine a truck of .50 caliber paintballs. Rough math .50 caliber pb is about 26.5% smaller than a .68, but lets agree their are fixed costs involved with paint cases (and let's put side the original cost for paint manufacturers to make new .50 caliber paintballs, let's assume it's the NEW standard). So let's assume although the paintballs are 26% smaller, the price drop was only 10%. $31.50/per case. Field store owner sells case at $41.50 (he still makes $10 a case, you save 3.50, like you'll say no to a few bucks saved). However the difference now is also that because the paint is smaller, (assume its still 2000 rd case) now instead of 200 cases in a truck load. You can 230 cases (thats only 15% more cases) in the truck. New profit is now $2000 for the field owner vs $1700 per truck load.

I am just trying to throw some real Business points at you so you can get an idea how the change may initially suck for EVERYONE, but overall it may actually workout fine at least financially.


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Old 10-09-2009, 05:00 PM #44
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Tournament players are a very small percentage of paintball. As big as you agg pbnation kids might think it is there are many more woodsball, scenario, and rec players then tournament. Paintball began its downfall in 2005 right around when the ion came out and people could easily hit 15 balls per second. Kids would buy the ion and use it on 1st time players at rec ball and light these kids up and they never returned because of how many bloody welts they walked away with.

Say with .50 cal you can get 4000 rounds for $50 instead of a case of 2000 for $50. The whole problem is going to start over because kids are going to be able to shoot twice as much paint as before. Sure this can help the small tournament scene since it will be cheaper for them to play and practice but it's going to hurt the rec ball scene. Why do you guys think that fields that have "hopper ball Saturdays" have doubled their attendance on these days since starting it? Limiting rate of fire is the way to go and 10 bps is certainly not limited. Now we will have these kids with more paint for the same price.

This is all about money. They are giving out a bunch of BS information saying they are more accurate and fly further so they can sell their modified already existing .68 markers as .50 cal and make money off this. I have ~20 .68 cal markers and I plan on always using those. Even if they made conversion kids for my sheridans and cockers I won't even bother.

I never check threads I post in especially on pbn since I'm never on pbn. If you want to talk about this with me please send me a PM.
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:08 PM #45
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Originally Posted by brettniles View Post
Who is to say that the cheaper cost of paintball manufacture is going to get passed on to us? No one. Manfacturers may be filling their pockets with the difference to pay for their new manufacture equipment.
They will pocket a significant portion..but they will have to pass on some of the savings to the dealers/fields and eventually the players (the players seeing the smallest change amount). Otherwise no one will ever buy the paint...they will definitely have to make all sorts of incentives to help the transition. Don't get me wrong if this works, I expect a 2-3 year transition period where both is available.... .68 is very strong at first,t hen it's more level, then .68 is hard to find them basically obsolete, but by that time no one will care and just get .68 for people who want some nostalgia.

As for companies pocket most of the savings. So the .50 is is 26% smaller and therefor 26% cheaper in MATERIALS (not machines which are considered "sunk costs"). In the business world 4-5% will be passed on to the player, 10% passed onto the dealers. 11% passed onto the manufacturer. Initially that 11% of extra money saved a lot of it will go to help pay for the new machines they will need to manufacturer the paint off the bat. But eventually the paintball industry will have .50 as the standard paintball and all those machines will be paid for and that extra saved money will mean more money available for Sponsorships, Events, Research & Development (yes all you people crying that the 2010 gun isnt much different than 2009), Better wages for better employees (people with more skills demand better salaries)...

I mean not everything at once, but a pick and choosing based off their business goals. No they are not going to pocket all the savings because COMPANIES in order to make money need to spend money, not put it in a piggy bank. If you think 11% material cost savings is small..put it this way...Taco Bell spent MONTHS negotiating with their suppliers like two years ago because they wanted to increase the cost of heads of lettuce by 1 CENT per pound. Assuming they buy their heads at 20 cents a pound that was only a 5% raise in material cost. and like less than 1% raise in materials for your average burrito, yet Taco Bell spent months negotiating this deal..and Taco Bell is a HUGE franchise. So yes 11% material cost savings for a supplier is HUGE.

The additional money saved for the Fields...well again it's an extra 10% they can use to help stock their shop, buy new bunkers, pay for raising rent rates, sponsor local teams/events?!?

As for the additional 4-5% saved for players. which is like maybe a $1.80-$3/case saved. Well it may not seem like much but less say you play twice a month. That's $86 a year at the low end, much more savings for people who play more often.

You all complain about having to buy new gear. Let's face it...the .50 caliber change wouldn't happen over night. We all end up upgrading are gear probably every couple years (some people every damn year or six months). you complain about our current gear becoming worthless. But come on my Dm8 I bought 1.5 years ago for $1100 sold for $500 yesterday. Meaning most of our gear is pretty much worthless once it hits 2-3-4 years old. Which is about the time it would take for this transition anyway.

my 2 cents from a business standpoint. Think long term people.


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Old 10-09-2009, 05:20 PM #46
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Th truth is you will probably buy a new marker in the next 1-2 years anyway right. Because of New models of high end guns etc.. What if they come out in a strictly .50 cal model. Would that stop you from buying a new EGO11 DM11 etc... if it was a .50 cal only model? probably not. If Dye came out with a new Rotor that fed 60 bps but it was only 50 cal, people would still trade up.
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:36 PM #47
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The people that think it will work keep saying that it wont happen over night. but how is it going to happen. you cant have some people shooting .50 and some shooting .68 that just wouldnt be fair. So in order to change it they would have to make it .50 only. That would force everybody who wants to play to either buy a new gun or to buy a conversion kit and i know that me and my friends dont have the money to do that. So saying that it wouldnt be over night and that i t would be some sort of gradual thing is probably not the way it would work. it would be abrupt and if they wanted to make say for instance a tourney that way they would have to have everybody buy a new gun or a conversion kit. Also all of the paintball players that go just a couple times a year... they count, they make profit for the paintball industry but if they have to change their guns they wont play ever again and i think you could guarantee that.
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:45 PM #48
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Originally Posted by gspin2k1 View Post
Less materials, cheaper paint. Also remember paintball fields buy their paint buy the truck load. Say each truck costs like $300 to deliver. The paintball store owner buys cases of paint for $35, sells them at $45 makes $10 per case of paintballs. Imaigne he can get i dunno 200 cases in a truck load. $2000 profit - delivery cost...$1700 profit.

Now imagine a truck of .50 caliber paintballs. Rough math .50 caliber pb is about 26.5% smaller than a .68, but lets agree their are fixed costs involved with paint cases (and let's put side the original cost for paint manufacturers to make new .50 caliber paintballs, let's assume it's the NEW standard). So let's assume although the paintballs are 26% smaller, the price drop was only 10%. $31.50/per case. Field store owner sells case at $41.50 (he still makes $10 a case, you save 3.50, like you'll say no to a few bucks saved). However the difference now is also that because the paint is smaller, (assume its still 2000 rd case) now instead of 200 cases in a truck load. You can 230 cases (thats only 15% more cases) in the truck. New profit is now $2000 for the field owner vs $1700 per truck load.

I am just trying to throw some real Business points at you so you can get an idea how the change may initially suck for EVERYONE, but overall it may actually workout fine at least financially.


~G
In no way is this a personal attack, but you are way off on your numbers. A field or store only making $10 per case won't be in business for long.
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Old 10-09-2009, 06:11 PM #49
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Originally Posted by joeyboy714 View Post
Truth is were never done buying things as paintball players. We never will. Loaders Guns Packs pants jerseys etc............ We are always waiting to see what comes out next. This is the new NEXT. What if the conversion kit is only 50 bucks. Will you stop playing this game just to save 50 bucks probably not.

What about people like me who still shoot mags, aka vikings and excals, cockers, etc? AGD, AKA, etc. still have a pretty big following. What about other older guns that are no longer made that still get heavy use? I don't think anyone is going to come out with a kit for those guns. I refuse to stop using my mag, viking, and sniper.
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Old 10-09-2009, 06:31 PM #50
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In no way is this a personal attack, but you are way off on your numbers. A field or store only making $10 per case won't be in business for long.
YP
The numbers were to give an idea of how everyone benefits a little in the long run. I'm surprised you took my numbers that seriously. I don't own a paintball shop how the heck could I know how much they make. There are way too many variables involves to give the exact specifics, but it's to put out the idea how everyone could still financially benefit from this in the long run.




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Old 10-09-2009, 06:33 PM #51
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Originally Posted by Elemental889 View Post
What about people like me who still shoot mags, aka vikings and excals, cockers, etc? AGD, AKA, etc. still have a pretty big following. What about other older guns that are no longer made that still get heavy use? I don't think anyone is going to come out with a kit for those guns. I refuse to stop using my mag, viking, and sniper.
All respect to old school guns, but people like yourselves are a small minority that can be written off or catered to by someone else willing to rip people off (i.e. Think about when Polaroid decided to quit, there are many people who went out and hoarded what was left of the film, and they will profit off those who want to be nostalgic). in your case maybe a few companies will still make .68 (if/when .50 ever becomes the standard), but expect paint prices to be up to like $100/case (hey..it wasn't too long ago I was paying $125/case for proball. So people would do it)

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Old 10-09-2009, 11:28 PM #52
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Say with .50 cal you can get 4000 rounds for $50 instead of a case of 2000 for $50. The whole problem is going to start over because kids are going to be able to shoot twice as much paint as before. Sure this can help the small tournament scene since it will be cheaper for them to play and practice but it's going to hurt the rec ball scene.

I agree here all the way. From all accounts that I've heard/read (I've never played there) Skirmish has paint prices that are a lot more than other fields: why, to lower the bps based on the all mighty dollar. The idea: the more you pay for paint the less likely you are to blow it shooting at nothing ie picking your shots. And it works for them. Now the more "rounds" you get per dollar does not help the bps topic. More players will simply overshoot/spray and pray more then before because they have more to burn.

Sorry that top piece should have been quoted from "kahnif"
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:22 PM #53
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Alot of people have left the game due to price and economy these past 2-3 years. If this is cheaper why not embrace it..... Affordability = More Players... Thus saving our game form dying. I dont think 68 cal will ever die out, but our gear wont become obsolete either. There are plenty of gun whores out there that buy the latest and greatest guns when they come out, right! What if the EGO 11 comes out in a strictly .50 cal model??????? Bet your *** people will trade up then!!! The industry wouldnt be doing this if it wasnt good for paintball.. People thought the same thing when electros started to come on the market, and look now. People wont even buy a mechanical marker. I say do what we gotta do to save the game, keep it affordable, and bring back all the people that had to hang it up, as well as bring in an influx of new players. Were lucky this isnt 95'!!! Thats when i started playing!!!! Marbs were a 100.00 a case back then. Welcome .50 CAL!!!!!!!!!
Agreed this is good for paintball
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:00 PM #54
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BUT this is not the angel paintball needs to save it from its own demise.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:40 PM #55
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Paintball is not in trouble because of the economy!!!! This downward trend in paintball started way before the current economical situation. It started when paint companies started unloading tons of cheap paint at retail outlets. Walmart, sports authority, etc. That load of cheap paint(which was a quick money grab) moved more players away from legit fields and into back yards because it was "CHEAPER". The result, was a huge number of legit fields, especially in more rural areas, could no longer turn a profit while competing with the cheap retail stores(on paint prices let alone entry fees ontop). So, they closed down. The result of this was a lack of new players. No more birthday bookings, stag parties, rookie tournaments, etc etc. Just the few ballers that were in the bush and in smaller and smaller numbers. BAM........situation degrades.
Then ebay came along........hey every joe schmo on the block is selling gear on ebay. Profit margins get tighter and tighter and soon enough even more legit fields go out of business, unable to match the pricing of basement businesses. BAM.........current....situation.

This trend is an aftermath of bad decision making on the part of paintball manufacturers. The quick bucks they all went after came back and slapped them in the face. They say speed kills, but greed also kills. American is feeling it everywhere. The quest for more and cheaper is destroying you.

Paintball companies need to understand their bread and butter is legitimate paintball fields. Every decision they make needs to put the vendors of their product in the forefront. When the vendors do well, everyone does well. As players we like to feel we're the driving force in the paintball world and while we're an important one, fields are the most important. How many new players have you introduced to paintball personally? I bet it's a lot less then the number of players you've seen quit! That's the problem. Legit fields introduce new players by the thousands, daily.

The entire industry can be revamped by giving legit fields top shelf pricing on everything. Ebay sellers, supermarkets etc......need to be at the bottom. Yes they sell volume, but they don't add to long term projections.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:28 PM #56
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.50 will not just save the game but it will save players. In the 7 years I've played I cant tell you how much good talent has gone to waste because of the cost of paintball and I'm talking about players who couldn't afford it even with sponsorships.

Paintball needs this. Paintball players need this. This should have come out a long time ago.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:52 PM #57
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Saving players won't matter in the least if they have nowhere to play. Especially tournament players(the smallest group of paintballers). There will always be people who can't afford to play tournament ball. The only tournament ballers that will get a break are people who play larger BYOP tournaments.

Smaller tournaments will actually do worse with 50 cal because the profit margin in real dollars from paint sales is a lot less money. Which means they can't pay their expenses. That means smaller events, which means less opportunity to get into tournament play, which means an ever larger pool of talent lost. I don't see how that helps players. Money or no money, there won't be any events to play.
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:00 PM #58
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Less paint costs but an added heavy blow to the bank by buying conversion kits... I'd end up quiting paintball because of that -_- I stopped playing couple years ago because I couldn't afford to buy a new tank and hopper shell!
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:18 PM #59
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Just don't convert.......plain and simple. Only one company is converting. The rest are just creating options.
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:18 PM #60
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i watch vids of it shooting. they break just as easy as a regular 68 and they are more accurate and cheaper. i guess ill be buying a conversion kit for my ego 10. they were shooting them at 270 and everyone was breaking like a normal 68 cal
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:36 AM #61
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i watch vids of it shooting. they break just as easy as a regular 68 and they are more accurate and cheaper. i guess ill be buying a conversion kit for my ego 10. they were shooting them at 270 and everyone was breaking like a normal 68 cal
in what way are they more accurate? how can you tell by a video how accurate they are unless there was a side by side test and they are probably shooting no more then 100 feet at a target that is setup in a shooting range.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:40 AM #62
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Its Not A Conversion, You Dont Have To Buy A Coversion Kit. You Dont Have To Buy A .50 Marker.

newsflash:
.68 Isn't Going Anywhere. .50 Is Only adding Another Avenue For Players Into Paintball.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:44 AM #63
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Anyone who thinks cheaper paint will increase the amount of players in the sport is foolish. People will shoot as much as they can afford. People who don't have to pay for it ( sponsored teams) will shoot more than you do, beat you, and bankrupt you trying to shoot enough to beat them. In the mean time, new players are overwhelmed by the amount of paint "average" players shoot at them the first time they play. And a very large portion don't come back again. The rest just go broke trying to keep up.

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