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Old 10-08-2009, 03:16 PM #64
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just read the "pros and cons" and my fears are all but confirmed... higher fps will be the only way .50 balls would reach the same distances as .68 balls... that means that close range exchanges will be painful as hell, since the area of the skin the balls are going to break against (or bounce, more likely) will be smaller, more force concentrated in a smaller surface... that also means your current mask is probably not designed to stand these types of energy, so one more item obsolete in your gear bag... there's no way I'll step on the field if someone on the other side is shooting these things at 425 fps... is this how we're supposed to introduce more or new players to the sport??? who the hell comes up with these plans???
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:26 PM #65
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According to what we know there won't be an FPS increase, that would be a last resort as it would make life difficult for, well everyone on the field. By the numbers a .50 rnd could be fired at over 400fps and still only just deliver the same force (in "n" not psi) as a .68 rnd. But that depends on the mass which is a wild card at this point by all best guesses. Now increasing the FPS may actually solve some of the questions we all have the issue is the safety at that point being such a smaller, faster moving object.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:27 PM #66
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According to what we know there won't be an FPS increase, that would be a last resort as it would make life difficult for, well everyone on the field. By the numbers a .50 rnd could be fired at over 400fps and still only just deliver the same force (in "n" not psi) as a .68 rnd. But that depends on the mass which is a wild card at this point by all best guesses. Now increasing the FPS may actually solve some of the questions we all have the issue is the safety at that point being such a smaller, faster moving object.
A 50 of the weight predicted... however thats based on fill volumes and current density. We are told the new fill wil be denser and the ball heavier, which begins to change all of the pros and cons, or at least some of them.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:36 PM #67
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Which is really all we have to work with, we're being told it's heavier and even then that's not official, unless I missed something. Aside from that we have really no idea. The only real hope of a paintball gaining that much weight is a massive break through in fills, which would have already impacted the market unless someone managed to keep it secret for this single use, which would be pretty cool.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:44 PM #68
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Which is really all we have to work with, we're being told it's heavier and even then that's not official, unless I missed something. Aside from that we have really no idea. The only real hope of a paintball gaining that much weight is a massive break through in fills, which would have already impacted the market unless someone managed to keep it secret for this single use, which would be pretty cool.

Agreed - but it would seem they could end a lot of this negative speculation by simply releasing the weight. That to me is a sticking point that tells me SP is going to depend on hype to sell it, which is why I bring up SPs history of successfully selling hype.
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:38 PM #69
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Thank you...

BTW. How can SP hype it? We never have? GI Milsim is.. and that is all Richmond.

The ONLY hyping SP has done is what I have been saying on my FB. Also... when was the last time we "hyped" up something? I have been in the marketing dept for over a year and before that helping out. We never hyped anything after the Nerve.
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:46 PM #70
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BTW, some more pros....

#1 - A chance for manufacturers to have a common thread barrel. Makes it easier on manufacturers, dealers, and the consumers.
#2 - Paintballs will be smaller, hence, it will may be beneficial for countries who consider 68 caliber paintball guns firearms. The may help open up paintball in those countries such as Germany, Australia, New Zealand... etc.

Food for thought.
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:48 PM #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
BTW, some more pros....

#1 - A chance for manufacturers to have a common thread barrel. Makes it easier on manufacturers, dealers, and the consumers.


Food for thought.
damn you... you may have been talking to some of the same people...
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:10 PM #72
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Long ago.......it was decided that 10 ft. pounds of force was the maximum impact that was allowed for safety. A .68 cal ball needs to travel at 325fps to create that force. For an added safety factor and to have a nice round number this was rounded down to 300fps. As I recall the limit for .62 cal was 350fps or 375fps and .50cal was 450fps to get the same 10 ft. pounds.
that was long ago... now we are seeking an improved range... if the ball is changed, the same/better range can be obtained by using 300fps still. also, ft-lbs is torque, i assume you meant 10psi, which is pressure, or they used some means to measure the force of impact, which may have been shooting at a device that measures torque... regardless, that is somewhat inaccurate, as the ball may travel faster and impart more energy into the explosion and less into the moment arm used to measure the force (and converted to a torque)...

regardless, with better materials, all we need is a matching trajectory and a ball break...
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:37 PM #73
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I'm just using the terminology that was used in the APG magazine that I read it in.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:49 PM #74
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.50 cal is a current firearm calibur I can't see other countries loosening on it vs .68 cal

on the fill being changed-- due to the nature of fill this will barely change the weight vs the 60% loss of volume thus a 60% loss in weight.

The shell will need to be thinner than current balls to ensure breakage and thinner = lighter.

FPS will have to be raised to offset or distance will have to be less. I can't see how physics can be defied.

On a constructive thought maybe a solid such as chalk could make them heavier.
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Old 10-08-2009, 06:08 PM #75
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Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
The may help open up paintball in those countries such as Germany, Australia, New Zealand... etc.

Food for thought.
Ok, I dont know about Germany but in New Zealand they arent considered firearms as 68 cal...so cross that one out
In Australia, they will still be considered firearms...how do I know.?...Im very familiar with the legal side of this here in Australia...our definition of a firearm has nothing to do with caliber or newtons of energy developed.
Sorry Sean but just thought I would clarify.
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Old 10-08-2009, 06:25 PM #76
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I spent a few hours today at the show, mostly looking at
what GI MilSim had on the table. FYI, they didn't have a
sample of a clip fed model, but did have a model which
had most of the same features (reversable feed neck),
multiple RIS rails. From what I obesrved and heard from
some folks who got to shoot the model, the paint flew
very straight (no fliers), the noise level was very low.
Also hear someone there comment that the pellets
weren't as dense as what they will be when they go
mainstream with this. Weight will factor into what I
call 'frangibility,' which can be losely defined as the
distance one can count on the pellets to break
when fired at a human target as opposed to a wall
or other solid surface.
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Old 10-08-2009, 06:30 PM #77
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it would be interesting to see what the fill is made of because it will have to be a denser material than what is used now.

This seems like it could be a good idea if the kinks are worked out, however it seems like some of them would take voodoo magic to work out.

for all the hurt the industry is feeling im not seeing alot of it, comapnies are still developing new markers, they are still spending money on advertising and outrageously nice website. Theres been a booming amount of rec players here in alaska at the speedball field, woodsball saw a drop of about 5 players or so at each scenario.

a .50 caliber round is a standard ballistic round that is both in pistol and rifle form, so telling me that it would be legal in countries that dont allow .68 is BS, the closest round I could think of to a .68 paintball gun caliber is the .700 nitro express round which would not fit in a paintball gun im pretty sure.

smaprt parts is right they never really hyped something more than other companies, but you really dont have to if you sue out the rest of the competition


for right now time will tell, the bottom lne is this wont become an industry standard becasue i personally wont spend another 300$ on a gun becasue conversion kits wont get you the desired effect you will have to buy a gun to get a nice shooting setup

Paintball is EXPENSIVE GET OVER IT if you dont want to spend the money then play pump or find another hobby.
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:54 PM #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
BTW, some more pros....

#1 - A chance for manufacturers to have a common thread barrel. Makes it easier on manufacturers, dealers, and the consumers.
#2 - Paintballs will be smaller, hence, it will may be beneficial for countries who consider 68 caliber paintball guns firearms. The may help open up paintball in those countries such as Germany, Australia, New Zealand... etc.

Food for thought.
for #1, In terms of High-End guns, there already is a common thread for the majority of markers. SP and Angel are the only ones who don't use cocker threads.

for #2, I've been to Germany and Austria, and still talk to two german sailors who played in america for 4 years while they were part of the embassy staff. Paintball size has nothing to do with their restrictions. It has to do with the fact that it shoots something. Unless it's Spaten or Hacker Pshorr from a keg, nothing that uses HPA or CO2 as a propellent is legal over there.
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Old 10-08-2009, 09:11 PM #79
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7. Less pain Using the equation Mass*Velocity= Force. If the .50 ball weights half that of a .68 ball then essentially it will have half the force. because in this equation velocity is the constant (assuming we keep the fps to 300 fps) and the mass of the actual ball is the variable that we are changing and force is what is effected in the end. (**If the .50 ball takes up over half the space of a .68 ball I am going to make the assumption that a .50 ball weights over half the weight of a .68 ball**) The question I have about this statement though is with a smaller surface area the force will be applied on a smaller portion of skin which would complete negate this Con but I do not have a math equation to prove or disprove this point. Nor a .50 ball to shoot at my own leg so we shall see what the outcome is. *if I did have one I would
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:06 PM #80
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For all the people that say the .50 cal paintballs wont break, Sense the .50 cal paint will be cheaper wont people be able to afford the tournament grade paint while still even saving money? shouldn't this greatly increase the chance of the paintball breaking due to the higher quality shell?
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:18 PM #81
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Why smaller, why not bigger??

It seems to me that with PSP limiting ROF and less people playing 7 man that marker technology has somewhat peaked. If you can't sell buyers on the newer faster marker each year then marker sales will flatten. This obviously is more towards the tourney end but, even though the tourney players are a smaller segment I think that it pushes sales more than the milsim market does, if only because of the idea of a newer, faster marker. I believe that the milsim market being somewhat like the pump market sells less markers per year, because they tend to change or upgrade their marker rather then buy a new one each year.

The idea of coming up with a new caliber equals more marker sales, by forcing players to buy new markers and the opportunity to tune down the tech of the marker thus making them less expensive and the possibility of higher profit per marker. (it's all a conspiracy by the paint and marker mfg's.) lol

The fields are the ones who could be hurt the most in the long run. If it's a FPO field are they going to carry multiple choices in both calibers? Not to mention the rental stock. If I was a manufacturer of paint and/or markers the hot tip would be to make them, the field owners a offer they couldn't refuse, such as switching their rental gear with .50 markers. Doing so would create a large customer base and give those who haven't tried a .50 the chance to try one.

Smaller balls to me equal harder to see coming, smaller hits which means a harder time for newbies. Larger balls(uh oh new wrench) equal easier to see, and the idea of a huge splash of paint means less controversy and I think an easier time for newbies.
New players to the game, isn't that what the sport needs.
More eyeballs on the sport i.e. TV, video, more first timers thats what it takes to grow the sport.

I await the flames
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:38 AM #82
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Who says paintball needs more innovation? Has baseball seen massive leaps in technology? Football? Basketball? Soccer? The answer is no. The growth and future of paintball has nothing to do with the size balls we shoot, it has to do with public perception of our sport.
I know this is completely off topic but Baseball,Football,and Basketball have all seen huge leaps in technology. Baseball,the bats have changed a huge amount,even the wooden bats are down to a science. Good bats have their wood chosen specifically,are shaped down to a the smallest dimensions and their weight is perfectly distributed. The ball is synthetic now,so that it comes out with less irregularity. All for the better.
Football has seen huge changes,pad technology,helmet technology,computers and pictures are used to better diagnose offenses and defenses.
Basketball,the shoes and the ball have changed to help the athletes perform at a higher level. Shoes now help a player jump higher,the courts are specifically designed to promote higher jumps for that big dunk or block.
Just thought I would point that out.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:41 AM #83
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The problem in germany to attract new players is not only the price.

1. in germany because of the law it is really a pain in the *** to open up a field because of the strict licensing requirements and orders.
So it could be that people have to drive 1 or maybe 2 hours to the next field.
2. Paintball is not really excepted cause a lot of people outside the paintball think it´s only a war game only freaks play.
3. The goverment and some experts think paintball has to be banned because it´s related to the school killings over here.
4. you can only play paintball games when you are over 18 years!!!

So sure if the prices drop it may attract new players but there is a lot more to do over here.


Here is another country specific point.

For us here in germany a paintball marker is by the law a weapon. They have to be tested by the goverment and run under the weapon law.
The excisting ones have special stamps on it with the caliber.
If the caliber changes for an excisting weapon by a conversion kit, it is possible that a 0.68 marker becomes illegal.

At the moment nobody knows for sure but think about most the excisting markers become illegal and has to be tested again by the goverment.

Will the goverment do the new testing for free? Sure not! so who pays for it? The paintball stores? The players?

Imagine a field with a 100 markers, that have to pay for the conversion kit and for the new goverment testing. Also it takes them time which cost money also for the extra time their employees work...

And in the end the players have to pay for all that.

So this might lower the savings for us as well.

I know this is a specific problem in our country but every country has a special way to treat the markers...

There is not only the US market, where it is quite easy to make the switch.



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Unless it's Spaten or Hacker Pshorr from a keg, nothing that uses HPA or CO2 as a propellent is legal over there.
That is definitly not true
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:05 AM #84
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It seems to me that the concept of .50 cal paint depends on being able to produce a denser fill to increase the mass of the ball. Since no weights have been released for .50 cal paint I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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BTW. How can SP hype it? We never have? GI Milsim is.. and that is all Richmond.
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