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Old 10-07-2009, 05:23 PM #22
lioutlaws316
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exactly i will cost the same or mabey more
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Old 10-07-2009, 05:39 PM #23
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Well like I said in another post, so far .50" paint is MORE expensive and much WORSE performing than .68" paint.
And then some wanna-be MBAs go on about market efficiency and then right after that tell me about market dictation (which make precisely contradictory points: the former stating the product will reach a price and stay there and the other saying it will swing directly with demand... its hard to listen to someone who contradicts himself).

It's not like the only .50" paint we have is the crappy blowgun stuff.
KT is making legit, high production value .50" paint. In volume. And yet it's still terrible and expensive compared to .68" paint.
It would have to be half the price and tenfold as frangible just to MATCH what we have now.

A $30 case of recball will shoot awesome through my Droid and break the vast majority of the time.
A $65 case of ultra evil will shoot very slightly more awesome through my Droid and break EVERY time.

If you can make .50" paint that will do both those things, you've just MATCHED what we've already got.
To make me want to buy adapters and barrels (or potentially worse, entirely new guns and loaders) you are going to have to do much more than just match what I've got now.

If you do, Ill buy.
Until then, Ill keep my greenbacks, thanks.
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Old 10-07-2009, 05:55 PM #24
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There is nothing wrong with the size of paint now, most people are broke as it is just trying to play. You will have to buy all the upgrades and what not if the paint gets smaller. People are happy with the paint now, there is no reason to change it. Manufacturers all say they're here to please people, and with paint size dropping i have seen TONS of people talking about quitting if it changes. Just leave it like it is there are no problems.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:17 PM #25
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i talked to the guy that owns my local field and he doesn't like the idea of getting a 100 new guns or drop in upgrades for them, that is a lot of money for fields with the economy as it is.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:50 PM #26
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First of all thanks for the work you┤ve done on this topic!

-At the moment I would say no to .50
-I don┤t think we need most of the pros for our sport.
-If people have to reload less, it takes a lot of fun and speed out of the game.
-Also, I think making markers smaller, lighter as the new generations are allready, is not really a benefit in handling.
-I can understand, that the industry has nearly reached the limit in marker design and they are looking for a new way to get their profit.
-I agree that this sport is expensive especially for the players.
-But bringing a new ball in the game does it really help?
-Aren┤t the costs much higher to switch for the player and the industry then maybe think about something else?
-what about the fields? Isn┤t it much more expensive to convert or having both systems?
-And who pays for the extra costs the industry and the fields have?
I think it will be us-the players.
-After so many years with .68 and some useless tries with other caliber ( wich includes a try with .50 )
Why suddenly a smaller ball is the answer for all problems?


What I┤m trying to say is:

It might be known that some companies have problems with lowering profits.

And the sport itself has problems to grow because of the hudge costs for players if they are not in a special Teamdeal.

Which again means lowering profits for the companies.

I know that lowering paint prices could help to attract new players and I think it┤s crystal clear that the newcomers will straight buy the cheaper paint and the markers for it.

So if .50 really is cheaper it brings new customers for the industry.

Sounds great!

But at the moment I really doubt that it will work.

I┤m not against innovations and I┤m not against paintball is growing but to be honest I don┤t think this is the right way.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:54 PM #27
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Greek, once more you have amazed me. this is a very well done thread!

But even with the pros, a simple couple thoughts/questions.

1) With a smaller ball, and it being more inacurate( as you stated in the cons), do you think the claimed cost of the new cases are worth it? If I am hitting less players, what's the point?

2) also with the smaller ball causing more bounces will this cause a velocity increase? And with this increase, noticble air consumption? I'm not sure how the science of it work?

3) any ideas on how hopper conversions Could work?


So far, I am against this change, for I simply don't see a true advantage that WOWs me.
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:11 PM #28
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If you go to a smaller ball, the ball can be affected more by winds and there will be less volume of paint. But the plus would be higher efficiency from the marker. Instead of making everyone going .50 cal make a choice of going to .68 or .5
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:21 PM #29
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GreekGod, very nice post.

Now I have a question, Will a smaller, faster paintball result in an overhaul of our goggle systems? Do you think smaller ball will result in more force on the lens at the impact area. Potentially causing failure in the lens?

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Old 10-07-2009, 07:39 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGN View Post
GreekGod, very nice post.

Now I have a question, Will a smaller, faster paintball result in an overhaul of our goggle systems? Do you think smaller ball will result in more force on the lens in the impacted area. Potentially causing failure in the lens?
Well if you think about F=(M)(A), so Force is equal to the Mass times the Acceleration. So if the A (Acceleration) is more than 300 fps, which I highly doubt, but to determine this how much does a .50 paintball weigh? And if the paintball is smaller there will be a smaller surface area which would increase the amount of pressure on a google..
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:42 PM #31
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Hmm, why would the .50 ball travel less far, and be less accurate? The weight may be one thing, but the diameter of the ball has also significantly dropped. Giving the ball less resistance to the wind impacting it as it exits the barrel. I guess you can say the weight and the size cancel each other out? I could do all of the math and see which is more significant, but I'd rather not at the moment.

Just my $.02.

Fantastic post!
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:44 PM #32
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But to over come the forces due to loss in weight and size, you would have the V be atleast over 300 FPS, or only use .50 in indoor fields.
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:49 PM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneC View Post
Well if you think about F=(M)(A), so Force is equal to the Mass times the Acceleration. So if the A (Acceleration) is more than 300 fps, which I highly doubt, but to determine this how much does a .50 paintball weigh? And if the paintball is smaller there will be a smaller surface area which would increase the amount of pressure on a google..
Obviously the lens will support a greater FPS than 300 but how much more?
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:04 PM #34
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I took my son who is 12 yrs old out playing last weekend and he ended up on the spool field behind an X bunker and he was 1 vs 4 and a player ran up to the bunker circled around point blank range and instead of surrendering him , shot him two times and one was in the back left part of his neck.

.50 cal at 400 fps at 5ft on the neck hummmm don't think so

the .68 left a nice bruise and he started to cry but sucked it up. How many church groups will we loose to upped FPS to make up for paintballs with 60% less mass and lower surface area?
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:05 PM #35
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Quote:
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Obviously the lens will support a greater FPS than 300 but how much more?
Well to determine that would be really hard, because there are alot of factors. To determine this you would have to max stress the lenses or require a time stamp like on carbon fiber tanks, Take account such as the sun can weaken a plastic lenses or chemicals. I would assume that the max V on a goggle has to be over 300 fps to make sure it would not fail at 300 fps..
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:18 PM #36
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Long ago.......it was decided that 10 ft. pounds of force was the maximum impact that was allowed for safety. A .68 cal ball needs to travel at 325fps to create that force. For an added safety factor and to have a nice round number this was rounded down to 300fps. As I recall the limit for .62 cal was 350fps or 375fps and .50cal was 450fps to get the same 10 ft. pounds.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:19 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panthrprey View Post
I took my son who is 12 yrs old out playing last weekend and he ended up on the spool field behind an X bunker and he was 1 vs 4 and a player ran up to the bunker circled around point blank range and instead of surrendering him , shot him two times and one was in the back left part of his neck.

.50 cal at 400 fps at 5ft on the neck hummmm don't think so

the .68 left a nice bruise and he started to cry but sucked it up. How many church groups will we loose to upped FPS to make up for paintballs with 60% less mass and lower surface area?

Good point. This goes well in this. Smaller surface area means higher chance of broken skin. Compairable to beds of needles . You apply a small surface at a greater force more damage on an indivdual spot.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:21 PM #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom222 View Post
Long ago.......it was decided that 10 ft. pounds of force was the maximum impact that was allowed for safety. A .68 cal ball needs to travel at 325fps to create that force. For an added safety factor and to have a nice round number this was rounded down to 300fps. As I recall the limit for .62 cal was 350fps or 375fps and .50cal was 450fps to get the same 10 ft. pounds.


That's what I was wondering.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:24 PM #39
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10 lbs pushing from my finger tip hurts
10 lbs with a needle ??

surface tension and PSI --- 400+ FPS with a smaller .50cal ball = people who won't come back.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:25 PM #40
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:26 PM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Leech View Post
Greek, once more you have amazed me. this is a very well done thread!
Thank you i try hard


1) With a smaller ball, and it being more inacurate( as you stated in the cons), do you think the claimed cost of the new cases are worth it? If I am hitting less players, what's the point?
Actualy i was hesitant at putting the acuracy in the Cons, i feel like i could reword it and make it sound like a Pro. Honestly till i have weight of the .50 and .69 i realy cant give you a consistant answer. I think that we will leave this one in the air till either propper unbiased testing is done.
2) also with the smaller ball causing more bounces will this cause a velocity increase? And with this increase, noticble air consumption? I'm not sure how the science of it work?
Your talking about PSI, PSI broken down is Pounds per Square INCH. i made inch bold cause thats the key word. Pressure is a strange forme of energy and acts different than most. Seeing as it depents also on the amount of space it has to work in. seeing as the breach and barrel both will be smaller eccellerating a lighter ball in a smaller space to faster velocitys will take noticibly less PSI
3) any ideas on how hopper conversions Could work?
I have a rough one drown up on a scratch peice of paper for the Rotor, i feel that is the easies fixed hopper on the market right now. For a Profecy i have all faith in Simon Stevens in finding a way to make it happen i ahve not put much thought into it but i know he can do it Also i have heard rumor that Dye is allready done with the kit, and are in testing along with there new bolt and breach design
Quote:
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GreekGod, very nice post.
Thank you
Now I have a question, Will a smaller, faster paintball result in an overhaul of our goggle systems? Do you think smaller ball will result in more force on the lens at the impact area. Potentially causing failure in the lens?
With out the actual weights of the balls i can not tell you. seeing as if you change the Mass to be lighter you could subsequently raise the velocity and keep the same force. I dont have the weights of the balls but if you think of it in this sence. if the ball is over half the weight of a normal ball then essenchaly we should be able to double velocity and keep the same force

THESE ARE THERETICAL NUMBERS TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND MY POINT

(M)(V)=(F)
.68- (6g)(300FPS)=1800
.50- (3g)(600FPS)=1800

Obviously the lens will support a greater FPS than 300 but how much more?
Velocity is not the problem it is the force. so as long as the force stays the same then the stress aplyed to the lense will stay the same

Answers are in BOLD

**Sorry for all my miss spelling i am dyslesic and used word to spell check my first post just so we dont have 1000 post saying i cant spell. Im sorry God made me this way, but i do understand math/physics and the human body quite well
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:29 PM #42
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By this i am not stating that Velocity is going to be increased. im just stating that as an answer if accuracy is effected by the different weight of the ball
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