[Raadio]

This whole .50cal revolution has really got me worried. And I have some questions I’d like to try to get answered.

I don’t want smart assed answers, these are legitimate concerns that I (a team captain, marker tech, field manager, and industry professional) have. I’m bringing this here because I feel this is the best place to get feedback from representatives in the industry. I’m not trying to be rude, but I don’t want to hear from players who “heard” from someone else. (even thought I probably will) I want to hear from the big dogs. They guys in the know.

Now before I begin, I’d like to recognize a few things:

.50 Cal is coming. I can respect that. Manufacturers need change to keep their costs down. And this is defiantly going to affect cost of production for paintball’s most burdening expense…paint. A case of 2000 paintballs at .68 that wholesales for 23.00 a case SHOULD cost about 16.50.

23 / 68 = .33 per .100 inch * 5 = 16.50

Not the BEST estimate, but without talking to a paint manufacture…that’s the best I can come up with. That’s a significant savings. That means that skid that costs $2400 today, will cost $1700. So I will agree that a move to 50cal paint will be better for the Paint manufacturers and the people buying paint.

However….

The majority of the concern, at least that I have, and I hear from individuals, comes from the standpoint of the player.

Now we’ve all heard from industry “representatives” telling us that no one will be forced to buy new stuff right away. I can see this as being true. But I can tell you that in the tournament scene, it won’t take long before people switch to .50. It’s simple physics. A smaller, more dense, projectile will travel straighter and with less air than a larger one. I’m not trying to get into a physics argument here, I’m simply saying that when you are shooting ropes at the guy across from you and he’s shooting LASERS back…it’s kind of a no-brainer.

And from the field standpoint….Yes. .68 isn’t going anywhere any time soon. BUT if you are a field, and you want to take advantage of the cost savings of 50cal paint…you better have a plan to switch your rental fleet over.

That being said, I’d like to know some things:

1. We have heard rumors about “kits” and adapters for equipment. But all we’ve SEEN is new markers. Is ANYONE in the industry actively working on backwards compatibility or is it just a race to get the first 50 cal markers out? I’d like so see some examples. ****Not officialy, but I've seen enough to call this topic addressed****

2. What are the leagues standpoints on the 50cal paint? I don’t play much tournament ball, but I do play scenario and the GSRP is usually only about a step and a half behind the professional consensus.

3. What about the local fields. I’d REALLY like to hear from companies like Tippmann and Smart Parts, seeing as how they probably hold the market share for rental equipment. Are we looking at an entirely new rental fleet? Trade in program? As I said before, it’s not about being obsolete, it’s about taking advantage of the cost savings early and recovering the cost of refitting rentals as rapidly as possible.

4. Just how long do paint manufacturers plan on making 2 different sizes of paint? There isn’t much cost savings if you have to retool and change formulas every time you run different size paint. It will actually cost MORE. Will we see paint sitting on the shelf longer before it hits the streets because it’s being made ahead of time? New plants? What’s the PLAN!


Sure. 90% of all paintball players really don’t care. Those will be the ones to flame this thread and say things like “You’re dumb” “Shut up” “Close pls”…But I for one, like being educated. I put thousands of dollars a year into this sport and I want to know that my hard earned dollars are being well placed. I think that if the industry as a whole wants this 50cal revolution to go over well, they will keep the consumers informed.

That’s all I want…to be informed.

[FirstTarget]

Parts needed to convert:
1. A stepped diameter bolt.
2, liner sleeve for chamber
3. A. New barrels with current o.d. and 59 cal i.d. .
B. Sleeved liners to decrease old 68 barrels down to 50 with a means of securing in such a way as to not damage barrel fit and finish. If done right these liners could actually improve barrel condition.
4. Quality kit at reasonable price.
Oh and these kits could be made for any size ball, if order base is there.

[2nd_String_Hero]

when you say cutting cost on paint cos you are absolutely right but not in the way you may think. more than likely companies that will produce paint will package 3000 round cases for around the same price as a 2000 round case. (maybe a few dollars more). Either way you spend less money on paint.


Personally I love the idea. Think about it, I get to play %50 longer on the same price. Awesome

[Fubarius]

Tippmann recently released an announcement concerning .50 cal paint...

"September 25, 2009

Dear Tippmann Customers:

At the recent Paintball Extravaganza in Atlanta, both my staff and I were asked numerous times about Tippmann launching a .50 caliber paintball marker. I want to put an end to the rumors and speculation and assure you that Tippmann is 100% committed to .68 caliber paintball markers. A .50 caliber platform has been announced by a new company but there has been very little information provided on product features and pros & cons for the industry. As industry manufacturers, we should always be driving toward new product innovation and technology as it is the life blood of any consumer goods category. However, until we know more about the .50 caliber platform we remain focused on .68 caliber. Industry manufacturers we have talked to are also in the “wait and see” mode.

Tippmann had a great show in Atlanta as we showcased a number of newly launched .68 caliber products, including the TPX paintball Pistol, the U.S. Army Project Salvo marker and the newly redesigned SL-68 II pump action marker. Our investment in the engineering resources and tooling for these new products should be validation of our continued focus on the .68 caliber platform.

We will continue to support the fields and dealers that sell and market .68 caliber products. As we push the envelope on new marker technology, our goal is to develop markers that will provide better air efficiency, superior range and improved accuracy.

I hope this clears up any confusion, and as always, thank you for your support of Tippmann products. Should you have any questions, feel free to contact your Tippmann sales representative.

Sincerely,

Howard Kosick President"

[mugwhumper]

I have a question for paint manufactures. Is there any work being done to make paint visible as it travels. If the sport is to grow, and paint sales with it, it needs to become spectator friendly. Right now a player can be shooting paint, or air, from a spectators perspective you can`t tell the difference. If the lanes of paint become visible you have a much more exciting and appealing sport to watch and play.

[Raadio]

Originally Posted by 2nd_String_Hero

when you say cutting cost on paint cos you are absolutely right but not in the way you may think. more than likely companies that will produce paint will package 3000 round cases for around the same price as a 2000 round case. (maybe a few dollars more). Either way you spend less money on paint.


Personally I love the idea. Think about it, I get to play %50 longer on the same price. Awesome

Do you think? Or can you put the same 2000 rounds in a smaller cheaper box. Fit more on a pallet. And what about loaders and pods. Are we gonna see the same 200 round hoppers but smaller? Remember pumps require 50 round hoppers in events....we gonna rewrite those rules too? That means smaller pods as well. I don't think were gonna get a bulk discount...but then again....I dont know...Thats why I posted this thread....

For the Industry to respond.

For the players to be informed.

But so far.....(insert crickets here)

[EgoManiacal]

Well, the Impulse .50 isn't a new marker, it's an Impulse with the .50 cal upper tube. (Kit)

PE released a conversion kit for the Ego

So really the only new gun we know about is the Kingmann. Most rental guns (not spools) could be converted using the exact same technique PE used on the ego. A breech adapter held in place by the barrel and a stepped bore bolt.

As for the rental Ions I would imagine SP will provide bolt kits for them if you don't want to buy new guns. It sounds like the GIMilSim Micro prototype is based on a Vibe, so they alread have .50 bolts made. Probably need a breech/front dump chamber adapter (one piece), new bolt, and new barrel. 3 pieces, if they're "stock" quality I'd imagine it'd be relatively cheap. And if you're using grav-feed hoppers as long as they do the feedneck adapter correctly I don't see an urgent need to change them, but grav-feeds are cheap anyway.

[Mi6GY]

Originally Posted by EgoManiacal

As for the rental Ions I would imagine SP will provide bolt kits for them if you don't want to buy new guns. It sounds like the GIMilSim Micro prototype is based on a Vibe, so they alread have .50 bolts made. Probably need a breech/front dump chamber adapter (one piece), new bolt, and new barrel. 3 pieces, if they're "stock" quality I'd imagine it'd be relatively cheap. And if you're using grav-feed hoppers as long as they do the feedneck adapter correctly I don't see an urgent need to change them, but grav-feeds are cheap anyway.

what about my cockers?

[insixdays777]

Originally Posted by Mi6GY

what about my cockers?

paper weights.

[Raadio]

I know what it taked to convert a marker over to 50cal...I fix markers for a living. I've got a good handle on that. So far none of my questions have been addressed. I've seen some kits...or pictures of them, so I'll omit #1....but so far all I've seen is rumors and speculation.

Common....do I gotta call SP and Tippmann myself?

Hmm....maybe I will.

[PBMatt]

Originally Posted by insixdays777

paper weights.

Would be interesting to see what shockteck does, again similar solution to the poppet style guns would probably be in order. Sleeve the upper tube, resize bolt, new back block to hold said bolt, new barrel, adjust regulators etc. I imagine certain side fed cockers would be obsolete

[lsongj721]

Originally Posted by Mi6GY

what about my cockers?

There's still hope.
I'm sure some custom machinists would make a conversion kit.
Probably customcockers.com would be you best best.

It wouldn't be any harder than an ego conversion kit, just maybe cost a little bit more.

[crazypiratx]

I don't understand how this will help fields. If this paint is cheaper to produce, won't customers want paint for a cheaper price? This will force fields to sell paint for less and cause their margins to become even more razor thin...

When I go to the field I have a paint budget. That budget is usually a case of paint. if I don't shoot it all then thats more paint I get to use next time. So by producing a ball that fly's better, is more accurate, and more efficient that means I'm allowed to shoot less. Not only that but I also get more paint for my dollar than with the old stuff. I'm no economist, but there's really not any incentive for me to buy more paint... how will this help the industry?

[Freestylin599]

Originally Posted by Mi6GY

what about my cockers?

same sleev idea i know its not a poppit design but a stacked tube should able to have a tube then insert everything as notmal just what i would call a 50 cal freak insert for the gun

[LoVeMyPuMp]

Odds are the paint companies will package 2000 rounds in a smaller box, and still rape us on the price

[crazypiratx]

Originally Posted by LoVeMyPuMp

Odds are the paint companies will package 2000 rounds in a smaller box, and still rape us on the price

That might have to be the business model to keep this industry alive...

[Malitov]

Originally Posted by crazypiratx

I don't understand how this will help fields. If this paint is cheaper to produce, won't customers want paint for a cheaper price? This will force fields to sell paint for less and cause their margins to become even more razor thin...

When I go to the field I have a paint budget. That budget is usually a case of paint. if I don't shoot it all then thats more paint I get to use next time. So by producing a ball that fly's better, is more accurate, and more efficient that means I'm allowed to shoot less. Not only that but I also get more paint for my dollar than with the old stuff. I'm no economist, but there's really not any incentive for me to buy more paint... how will this help the industry?

Thats what I was just wondering about.

Lets say cases come in 3000 rounds for 50cal. From what I've read the 50cal will cost maybe 5-10 dollars more but you will get more in the case. Now if a case only cost $10 more but you get half a case more where does the field make up it's money? Say a player shoots 1500 rounds of 68. when they play, but with 50cal that still leaves them with enough for next weekend also. Now some may believe that players will simply shoot more paint. But what if this isn't the case? Where will fields make up the costs? Fields will have to jack up entry fees. Or find some other way to compensate.

[insixdays777]

Originally Posted by Malitov

Thats what I was just wondering about.

Lets say cases come in 3000 rounds for 50cal. From what I've read the 50cal will cost maybe 5-10 dollars more but you will get more in the case. Now if a case only cost $10 more but you get half a case more where does the field make up it's money? Say a player shoots 1500 rounds of 68. when they play, but with 50cal that still leaves them with enough for next weekend also. Now some may believe that players will simply shoot more paint. But what if this isn't the case? Where will fields make up the costs? Fields will have to jack up entry fees. Or find some other way to compensate.

Agreed. I dont think people are going to shoot more paint. Myself and my friends shoot as much as we need to get the job done now. You can only pull the trigger so many times a game.

[Raadio]

From a field standpoint, I think we'll see small boxes with 2000 rounds. 4 bags of 500. Just like we have now. But we'll get more on a skid for the same price. So your 2500 dollar Skid will now have (making this up) 165 boxes instead of 108. You're still paying 2500 but now you can sell 140 @ 40 - 45 a case instead of 108 at 50-55 a case. You still make your money and the end user still gets cheaper paint.

That's what I see happening.

[loneassassin]

Originally Posted by insixdays777

Agreed. I dont think people are going to shoot more paint. Myself and my friends shoot as much as we need to get the job done now. You can only pull the trigger so many times a game.

That might be true for you and me - but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people will shoot a whole lot more. Think of the people that show up on rec days and shoot 2+ cases. I'm not thinking of speedball so much because you can only shoot so much in a short amount of time - but in the realm of woodsball and larger rec fields, here's what I see going down:

People that can afford two cases are going to stay on the trigger from the start of the game to the end. Perhaps EVERYBODY will shoot a lot more - it's a distinct possibility. I know from a personal standpoint, I shoot more in the first few games of the day than I do at the end of the day, because I start out with a full case. When I get down to two bags, I start to be more conservative or get out my pump.

If someone has 6000+ paintballs at their disposal, do you think they are going to worry about paint conservation?

What I'm getting to is this: At least from a recball standpoint - there is going to be a lot more paint in the air, and thus a larger number of noobs that immediately get overwhelmed and scared away from the sport.

My question to the industry is whether or not they've thought about the impact on the game itself? Or is it just another case of them thinking about their bank accounts first and foremost?

[Blackrain7557]

I think what a lot of people are missing is the equipment that goes into making a paintball. The .68 caliber machines are probably already payed off if not close to it. So costs for them are going to be as little as they can right now besides ingredients.

But to switch platforms over to .50 caliber paintballs is going to take a lot more than conversion kits. It means new machines, techniques, ingredients etc. That means a lot of money that the industry has to spend to start producing them. That also means a lot of savings won't be passed on until it goes mainstream.


ALSO

Now they would more than likely start having to manufacture both types of paintballs which leads to even more costs. So how in reality does this help us save any money at all.