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Old 10-21-2009, 05:38 AM #43
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Originally Posted by Devastation View Post
roger is right in everything he has said..some wont admit to it but he's right...new england paintball has always been a boys club type of deal..its not treated like a buisness and therefore wont be as succesfull as west coast teams,, period!
It's not a business. It's a game. We play for fun. No one makes money doing this, at least not more than they would make doing a normal job. We're not talking about a mainstream sport with the high potential for a career.

Maybe you could look at it a different way. Maybe the West Coast has a lot more kids wasting their time trying to make money at this.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:17 AM #44
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It is a business. Not all return on investment comes in a cash form. The business of paintball is one in which you invest time and money and what your gain or loss comes in the form of wins and losses. You dont win a cash prize for the Superbowl...or the NBA Finals...or the World Cup. You win the title. Ali fought for the TITLE people on PAID to OBSERVE his rise to GLORY.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:29 AM #45
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It is a business. Not all return on investment comes in a cash form. The business of paintball is one in which you invest time and money and what your gain or loss comes in the form of wins and losses. You dont win a cash prize for the Superbowl...or the NBA Finals...or the World Cup. You win the title. Ali fought for the TITLE people on PAID to OBSERVE his rise to GLORY.
The median salary in the NFL in 2009 is roughly $770,000.
The average salary of an NBA player in 2009 is roughly 5.3 million.
The average salary of an NHL player in 2007-2008 was 1.9 million.
The NE Patriots made 282 million dollars last year after operating expenses.

How much did the Canes make last year? How much, for that matter, did the Ironmen make? Let's take the three most winningest team in the last three years. . .Ironmen, Legion and Dynasty. How many of them are operating on a profitable budget?

It's not a business. You are not making money, that is the purpose of business. It is a hobby.

Definition of Business:

1. an occupation, profession, or trade: His business is poultry farming.
2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.
3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

No Paintball Team is a business. They are money sink holes. Maybe instead of trying to pretend we're a business oriented sport, we should start understanding that we are a competitive hobby run at the will of folks who have money.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:56 AM #46
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Yet you still miss the previous point. Paintball is a profitable enterprise but the profit is purely cerebral and translates into little cash money. You still harp on the fact that people dont make any money at this. OK ALREADY. We get that but we are beyond it. The happiness of obtaining the World Cup trophy is a payoff more VALUABLE than the money that went into it and therefore profitable and therefore a business. Those who invest the money and are not satisfied with the result are getting a negative ROI.

I see your point Jon. Its a hobby for you and your buddies but its not a hobby for the Pro's and leagues that seek to cultivate the competitive spirit.

Why get in the ring with the big boys (world cup) if you are just fine with getting knocked out in the first round?
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:58 AM #47
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Also by your understanding there could be no such thing as a " Not for Profit Business" or a Non-Profit Business
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:09 AM #48
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Yet you still miss the previous point. Paintball is a profitable enterprise but the profit is purely cerebral and translates into little cash money. You still harp on the fact that people dont make any money at this. OK ALREADY. We get that but we are beyond it. The happiness of obtaining the World Cup trophy is a payoff more VALUABLE than the money that went into it and therefore profitable and therefore a business. Those who invest the money and are not satisfied with the result are getting a negative ROI.

I see your point Jon. Its a hobby for you and your buddies but its not a hobby for the Pro's and leagues that seek to cultivate the competitive spirit.

Why get in the ring with the big boys (world cup) if you are just fine with getting knocked out in the first round?
Why do anything then if you aren't going to win? Why would I sit down in front of a computer game and play others? Why would I go play tennis with some friends? Sometimes, you enjoy the "doing". There were 300 teams at World Cup and only 6 or so "won" anything. If everything in life is a competition, and you aren't winning everything, you might as well just go kill yourself (not you personally, that's just a general statement).

I know plenty of people that learn to box or do martial arts for many reasons besides winning.

My point is that saying somehow New England is worse of because we don't have as many winners in paintball is ridiculous, because in the scheme of things "winning" in paintball matters about as much as winning in checkers or Magic Cards. Hell, I bet people that win in Magic Cards make more than most paintball players. New England has tons of people that love to play paintball and a robust community where we all have a good time. Sure, 1 or 2 players escape and play for pretty cheap for a years, but the majority of this community is realistic and knows where they stand. It is the people who think that this sport should be more than it is, or who push really hard to be something that they are not that cause 99% of the problems. It is people who think there is something more to this then there really is that make it hard for realistic players to progress the sport to a point where we can all be happy.

Winning is awesome. I've travelled all over the country winning and losing at tennis. However, saying that winning is the only reason to play paintball is just a waste of statement. In ten years, we're going to be at the same point in life regardless of whether or not you won at paintball and I didn't.

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Also by your understanding there could be no such thing as a " Not for Profit Business" or a Non-Profit Business
There is no such thing Roger. A business by very definition operates FOR PROFIT. Non-profit organizations exist, but they require independent funds with which investors do not require any form of payback. So, essentially most paintball teams are non-profit organizations. Someone, or a group of people, donate money and time to see something they love work out. It's like volunteering at the Boys and Girls Club.

My problem with paintball is this: You volunteer at the Boys and Girls Club because it's a lot of fun for you. You spend the day teaching kids arts and crafts, which you love. You give up a day of work, but you knew you were going to have to do that, so it's alright. Now, it's time to pack up, and you suddenly hold your hand out and say "where is my check?". When you don't get the payment you want, you go online and complain about it. That is paintball in a nutshell.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:55 AM #49
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The end goal of a business isn't necessarily to make money every day, but to one day sell the business and make money. Think back to the Internet boom days - many businesses started on VC money, never turned a profit and then sold for millions.

You can also have a non profit business that pays it's employees. The only thing is - they can't make a profit - that means they break even every year. maybe because they get donations to cover their expenses or maybe because they make a large donation/investment every year with their "profit" so that they don't have profit. I would have to side with Roger on this - the service provided by the non profit company is the ROI that the investors want. They've gotten what they want in return for their investment - if they didn't, then maybe next year they donate to a different cause.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:13 AM #50
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The end goal of a business isn't necessarily to make money every day, but to one day sell the business and make money. Think back to the Internet boom days - many businesses started on VC money, never turned a profit and then sold for millions.

You can also have a non profit business that pays it's employees. The only thing is - they can't make a profit - that means they break even every year. maybe because they get donations to cover their expenses or maybe because they make a large donation/investment every year with their "profit" so that they don't have profit. I would have to side with Roger on this - the service provided by the non profit company is the ROI that the investors want. They've gotten what they want in return for their investment - if they didn't, then maybe next year they donate to a different cause.
Yes but that doesn't make it a business. Just because something has a return on investment doesn't make it a business. This may be semantics but I feel it's important that we all understand how we choose our words effects our arguments.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:25 AM #51
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I just wanted to chime in a say, hooray for the Magic Cards =) Those guys actually do make a decent living on the world circuit, but again it's the top guys that can do it.

But, I also was curuious about something. It seems to me that Roger comes from the camp that thinks of paintball as a legit sport that, once enough of a gathering is formed and spectators begin to go to the pro games, we will have dedicated athletes that will have salaries to compensate the love they have for the sport. It also seems that jj isn't from that camp.

I don't mean to agrue one side or the other, although I am most definitely with Roger on this, but I would love to know the answers to the questions about profit that you asked about the Ironmen and Dynasty.. but also think we should look at Russian Legion. They don't make much money at all, but it is a salary and they love the game. Do you guys think there is a large number of people that would spend a few years of their lives with a $20-30k salary if it was coming solely from paintball?

I think the answer to that would be a way to objectionably (if we had a decent poll) show whose camp is larger.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:58 AM #52
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I don't think what they are saying it is a business. It isn't. I think what roger is saying is it should be run more like a business. Key word is like. Or another way of saying it is more professional. I think what roger is saying (correct me if I am wrong Roger) is that the way NE as a whole runs things very lax. There is no real drive to win or go to the next level. Of course that is a generalzation and there will always be exceptions to the rule.

You are right Jon you can run a team with the end goal to go out with your friends play and have fun. Thats what the majority of all sports are. 99% of people who play sports play any and all sports recreationally. Roger wants to be part of that 1% that plays for the love of competition and the game. The funniest part of the way roger plays is winning and everything else is a distant second. You can call Paintball a hobby if you want, and for you it is a hobby. I think you are a bit niave to say that it isnt a sport. Its not a mainstreem sport like baseball, but it is a sport. No different than me playing volleyball as a hobbie, volleyball is still a sport.

Anyways, just trying to clarify what Roger is saying. Roger if I am way off, please reclarify.
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Old 10-21-2009, 01:39 PM #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
It is a business. Not all return on investment comes in a cash form. The business of paintball is one in which you invest time and money and what your gain or loss comes in the form of wins and losses. You dont win a cash prize for the Superbowl...or the NBA Finals...or the World Cup. You win the title. Ali fought for the TITLE people on PAID to OBSERVE his rise to GLORY.
Winning the superbowl = $78k per player
Winning Team, NBA Finals: $1,770,947

Not sure what sport you're referring to when you say "World Cup", as there are many sports that have a World Cup (that get paid plenty of money to win it).

Sources:
http://www.insidehoops.com/playoffs-salaries-pool.shtml
http://football.about.com/od/histo2/a/SBbonus.htm


Some professional paintball players might play for the money (very few lol?) but I would imagine that most don't look at it like their job or their business. Besides, don't quite a few pro players actually have real jobs and/or go to school?

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I don't think what they are saying it is a business. It isn't. I think what roger is saying is it should be run more like a business. Key word is like.

...

Anyways, just trying to clarify what Roger is saying. Roger if I am way off, please reclarify.
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It is a business.
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Old 10-21-2009, 01:52 PM #54
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:17 PM #55
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Having played in Florida a few times(at rec/tournament fields not for tournaments) I noticed no difference to New England. It is people having fun.

If your drive is to play to win, then do it. Play your heart out, spend your cash to play 3 times a week. If that's fun to you than cool. Don't get angry because many people don't see it that way.

I play strictly for fun. I play tournaments because I like to be competitive.
The day I go to a tournament, lose every prelim game, and then can't say I had fun is the day I quit paintball.

Why shouldn't it be this "boys club" you speak of?

Let's all go watch Cereal Killers 2 and listen to Brandon Mayo, K?
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:26 PM #56
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I agree with what you're saying jmac - but I think it goes both ways. Yes some people play for fun, that's obvious, but there are also people that want to play to win, and play like it's much more than a hobby. I don't think Roger is angry at the 'boys club' he's just voicing his opinion on the thread. People want to be surrounded by like minded people, and I think it does suck and leave a sour taste in your mouth when it just doesn't happen.
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:17 PM #57
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The median salary in the NFL in 2009 is roughly $770,000.
The average salary of an NBA player in 2009 is roughly 5.3 million.
The average salary of an NHL player in 2007-2008 was 1.9 million.
The NE Patriots made 282 million dollars last year after operating expenses.

How much did the Canes make last year? How much, for that matter, did the Ironmen make? Let's take the three most winningest team in the last three years. . .Ironmen, Legion and Dynasty. How many of them are operating on a profitable budget?

It's not a business. You are not making money, that is the purpose of business. It is a hobby.

Definition of Business:

1. an occupation, profession, or trade: His business is poultry farming.
2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.
3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

No Paintball Team is a business. They are money sink holes. Maybe instead of trying to pretend we're a business oriented sport, we should start understanding that we are a competitive hobby run at the will of folks who have money.
idk about you but when i play i play to get better. i practice to win. i respect very few out in this paintball world. i know who im loyal too and who i am not. i call the sport a sport. i call rec ball a hobby. for some reason the word hobby in my head connects with the weird *** role playing games my little brother plays on the computer.

you can run it like a business out of my eyes look at 187 their a very good team. I WILL PAY MONEY TO PLAY AT FOX4 because i want to get a couple games with them in at a rotation. therefore giving my money to fox4 in the end daves getting my money making it a business (in your words because he got profit off my money)
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:56 PM #58
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Dan means most fun, not funniest.
Actually Jeff what I meant to say was more funlier... Typos do happen.

Anyways lets move the conversation toward the comment of the Pro players and "real" jobs. What is a real job? Is bartending a real job? Pizza Delivery? Or are we considering a coprorate job a real job? Yes 99% of pro paintball players have other jobs or go to school. But hat does that have to do with anything? it really shouldnt. Back in the early days of pro baseball the pro baseball players would work part time jobs and fulltime during the offseason. Was ted williams not a pro baseball player becuase he also held a job? I don't think the lack of money in paintball should take away from the fact that paintball is both a sport and a hobby.

Thats all... Just wanted to try and clear up some more info, and toss just my two cents in on that.

continue the discussion... you are making my "real" job much more enjoyable
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:09 PM #59
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FU2N,
That would make them an investment. Not a business. I think we are getting a little too carried away on definition though.

RogerP,
Some people want to play to have fun.
Some people want to play to win.
I think most people want both...Probably the hardest of the choices.

Something can be said for chemistry. Teams who have played together for a long time have a good idea how the other teammates will react in a given situation.

It is my feeling that I would rather take what I have to the next level than just pickup and move there.

I think the "boys club" you are referring to is the comradely of a team. Something you know nothing about because a team is just a vehicle to the top rather than a family. That’s your thing however I don’t know if I would consider teams wanting to stay together a problem.

"When a team outgrows individual performance and learns team confidence, excellence becomes a reality." -Joe Paterno

You can be the fastest most accurate pie plate blaster in the west but fact is if you got no faith in your team your going to have a hard time finding success. The only way I see you building that trust and faith is by playing with the same guys.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:11 PM #60
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FU2N,
That would make them an investment. Not a business. I think we are getting a little too carried away on definition though.

Some people want to play to have fun.
Some people want to play to win.
I think most people want both...Probably the hardest of the choices.

Something can be said for chemistry. Teams who have played together for a long time have a good idea how the other teammates will react in a given situation.

It is my feeling that I would rather take what I have to the next level than just pickup and move there.

I think the "boys club" you are referring to is the comradely of a team. Something you know nothing about because a team is just a vehicle to the top rather than a family. That’s your thing however I don’t know if I would consider teams wanting to stay together a problem.

"When a team outgrows individual performance and learns team confidence, excellence becomes a reality." -Joe Paterno

You can be the fastest most accurate pie plate blaster in the west but fact is if you got no faith in your team your going to have a hard time finding success. The only way I see you building that trust and faith is by playing with the same guys.
no better way to put it.

but you got to make investments to create a business right?

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Old 10-21-2009, 04:29 PM #61
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Actually Jeff what I meant to say was more funlier... Typos do happen.

Anyways lets move the conversation toward the comment of the Pro players and "real" jobs. What is a real job? Is bartending a real job? Pizza Delivery? Or are we considering a coprorate job a real job? Yes 99% of pro paintball players have other jobs or go to school. But hat does that have to do with anything? it really shouldnt. Back in the early days of pro baseball the pro baseball players would work part time jobs and fulltime during the offseason. Was ted williams not a pro baseball player becuase he also held a job? I don't think the lack of money in paintball should take away from the fact that paintball is both a sport and a hobby.

Thats all... Just wanted to try and clear up some more info, and toss just my two cents in on that.

continue the discussion... you are making my "real" job much more enjoyable
Personally, I would consider a "real job" the job you do to pay for your bills, living expenses and any luxuries you enjoy.

If you barely make enough money playing paintball to cover the cost of you playing paintball, it's not exactly a reliable profession is it? That's when the "real" job takes over. Whether that real job be bar tending or working for a company within the paintball industry, it's still the job that provides the money you live off of.

Some real jobs may be more enjoyable then others, i.e. work at Dye or Deliver Pizzas, one of those you may not enjoy so much (guess which one ). The level of enjoyment has nothing to do with whether the job is your real job or not. If it pays the bills, it's a real job. You could be playing paintball 4 days a week, paying your bills and living comfortably, and that's your real job.

In order to determine whether or not paintball is your "real job", you'd have to go over the money you make, what job/jobs you work, how much it costs you to live and how much it costs you to play. Sure, some Pro's make enough to pay their bills and live well (enough), but how many have other professions? Between paintball and their "other profession", which one pays more? Which one would cover the bills if they lost the other? Since I'm not a Pro player (though I absolutely should be), I can't really give accurate numbers as to how much the average one makes. But how about D1/D2/Semi-Pro players? Can they consider paintball their "real job"? I can't imagine many of them answering "yes" to that question.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:31 PM #62
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I don't think what they are saying it is a business. It isn't. I think what roger is saying is it should be run more like a business. Key word is like. Or another way of saying it is more professional. I think what roger is saying (correct me if I am wrong Roger) is that the way NE as a whole runs things very lax. There is no real drive to win or go to the next level. Of course that is a generalzation and there will always be exceptions to the rule.

You are right Jon you can run a team with the end goal to go out with your friends play and have fun. Thats what the majority of all sports are. 99% of people who play sports play any and all sports recreationally. Roger wants to be part of that 1% that plays for the love of competition and the game. The funniest part of the way roger plays is winning and everything else is a distant second. You can call Paintball a hobby if you want, and for you it is a hobby. I think you are a bit niave to say that it isnt a sport. Its not a mainstreem sport like baseball, but it is a sport. No different than me playing volleyball as a hobbie, volleyball is still a sport.

Anyways, just trying to clarify what Roger is saying. Roger if I am way off, please reclarify.
I didn't say it wasn't a sport, my point was that it wasn't a BUSINESS. I agree that Roger is in the 1%, but what I am challenging is the fact that an entire region needs to share his ideology. Roger is blaming New England for his woes, in a sense, when realistically Roger has only himself to blame. "Winners self-select". It appears that Roger was not one of the people who "self-selected" in the region.

What I am arguing is that it is NAIVE to think of paintball as more than a hobby for 99% of the population, so that's where you and I agree Dan. It is a hobby for almost everyone! There are people that want to win. There are people that for them, this is there football, baseball, hockey, tennis, etc. I just think there are too many kids out there who believe they are entitled to something when they are not. Every tournament paintball player thinks they should get a sponsorship just because they have matching jerseys and masks, or because they show up to tournaments. We see it all over the forums here, and in person. It isn't like that in other sports, people see the discipline necessary to be a top level athlete in Football and Basketball and they say, "hey, that isn't for me, I'd rather play for fun". In paintball, everyone thinks that it is that easy. Roger included, he has only played for 1 year, and all of the sudden he is on this forum telling people Pro Players should have picked him up.

It's not easy to do what you guys do Dan. I know that. Smart people know that. Most of paintball DOES NOT know that. That is my point. Too many people think they are going PRO when they are engaging in a HOBBY.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:34 PM #63
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That doesn't account for investing one's time.

If you were to start up your own company but tend a bar at night to pay the rent until things got going, then what would your job be?

So, if you believed paintball was your future, would provide for your lifestyle and retirement, but you delivered pizza in the mean time (btw, Dan, you just threw Brian right under the bus there). Then you job is still pizza?
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